Is Maliki being mistranslated, lying or just telling the truth?


John McCain recently said that Maliki does not "really" want to see a substantial draw down of US combat troops in Iraq. Back on July 21st, a McCain spokesman used these words:

"The Iraqi government made it clear there were apparently some translation problems in the quote, that that's not the position of the Prime Minister," he said. "That the prime minister believes and certainly the Iraqi government believes that withdrawal has to be based on conditions.

Of note: This strikes me as being at the core of Brooks & B's conundrum over Obama's allegedly ambiguous Iraq policy, however I do not wish that kerfluffle to be the centerpiece of this diary. Rather, I wish to focus on Maliki's actual position concernng the withdrawal of US combat troops.

Interestingly, a very similar scenario played out two years ago and George W. Bush appears to have browbeat Maliki into submission. If this article is accurate we have a situation analogous to "Her words said 'No!' but her eyes said 'Yes'"

WASHINGTON, Jul 28 (IPS) - Many official and unofficial proponents of a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq are dismissing Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's demand for a U.S. timeline for withdrawal as political posturing, assuming that he will abandon it under pressure.

But that demand was foreshadowed by an episode in June 2006 in which al-Maliki circulated a draft policy calling for negotiation of just such a withdrawal timetable and the George W. Bush administration had to intervene to force the prime minister to drop it.

Yet now (in 2008) President Bush appears to unable to go to the same well twice given his agreement to a "time horizon" which may not rxactly be a time table but is rather close to a set plan for withdrawal. The Daily Standard explained the consequences of the "time horizon" agreement:

McCain has made much of what he considers Obama's reckless promise to call in the generals on his very first day in the Oval Office and order them to devise a plan for ending the war within sixteen months. If they object to such a timetable, he plans to remind them that policy is for the president, implementation is for the military.

McCain ridicules such a timetable, calling it a surrender to the forces of al Qaeda, a notice to the bad guys that all they have to do is sit around for sixteen months and then take over the country, probably with the help of the Iranians. Although Obama has left himself some wriggle room--some troops to be left to train the Iraqis and stamp out a terrorist revival, or genocide, or instability--there is a clear difference between the candidates, and for a while McCain had the more plausible story.

Along comes George W. Bush to bail out Obama by accepting Al-Maliki's call for a "general time horizon" for the withdrawal of troops, a period generally understood to be two years or less. The difference between Obama's withdrawal timetable, and the president's "general time horizon", if indeed there is one, is lost on most voters. They now see McCain as wanting to keep U.S. troops in harm's way longer than his opponent, his own president, and Iraq's prime minister deem necessary.

If Gaerth Porter is correct, both Bush and Maliki know exactly what happened in 2006 and I would speculate that Maliki has used the intervening two years to craft a better plan to win his nation's independence from the United States:

The context of al-Maliki's earlier advocacy of a timetable for withdrawal was the serious Iraqi effort to negotiate an agreement with seven major Sunni armed groups that had begun under his predecessor Ibrahim al-Jaafari in early 2006. The main Sunni demand in those talks had been for a timetable for full withdrawal of U.S. troops.

Under the spur of those negotiations, al-Jaafari and Iraqi national security adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaei had developed a plan for taking over security in all 18 provinces of Iraq from the United States by the end of 2007. During his first week as prime minister in late May, al-Maliki referred twice publicly to that plan.

At the same time al-Maliki began working on a draft "national reconciliation plan", which was in effect a road map to final agreement with the Sunni armed groups. The Sunday Times of London, which obtained a copy of the draft, reported Jun. 23, 2006 that it included the following language:

"We must agree on a time schedule to pull out the troops from Iraq, while at the same time building up the Iraqi forces that will guarantee Iraqi security, and this must be supported by a United Nations Security Council decision."

History reveals that President Bush rejected this approach and by June 2006 the Maliki government was apparently in agreement that the withdrawal of US troops must be "conditions based" -- a necessary context for the current debate between Obama and McCain. Obama (of course) has been steadfastly consistent in his position that the underlying decision to withdraw US combat brigades NOT be subject to vague benchmarks related to security however the precise timing and tactics of any withdrawal is subject to adjustment after taking into account information gathered from commanders in Iraq.

Bottom line? IMHO? It is time to give the Iraqis their country back. We should remain "over the horizon" and available to help when asked however occupation by significant numbers of combat troops must end, for a great many reasons.

Note the words used by the Iraqi national security adviser back in 2006:

The heavy pressure that had obviously been applied to al-Maliki on the issue during and after the Bush visit was resented by al-Maliki and al-Rubaie. The Iraqi rancor over that pressure was evident in the op-ed piece by al-Rubaei published in the Washington Post a week after Bush's visit.

Although the article did not refer directly to al-Maliki's reconciliation plan and its offer to negotiate a timetable for withdrawal, the very first line implied that the issue was uppermost in the Iraqi prime minister's mind. "There has been much talk about a withdrawal of U.S. and coalition troops from Iraq," wrote al-Rubaie, "but no defined timeline has yet been set."

Al-Rubaei declared "Iraq's ambition to have full control of the country by the end of 2008". Although few readers understood the import of that statement, it was an indication that the al-Maliki regime was prepared to negotiate complete withdrawal of U.S. troops by the end of 2008.

Then the national security adviser indicated that the government already had its own targets for the first two phases of foreign troop withdrawal: withdrawal of more than 30,000 troops to under 100,000 foreign troops by the end of 2006 and withdrawal of "most of the remaining troops" -- i.e., to less than 50,000 troops -- by end of the 2007.

The author explained why the "removal" of foreign troops was so important to the Iraqi government: it would "remove psychological barriers and the reason that many Iraqis joined the resistance in the first place"; it would also "allow the Iraqi government to engage with some of our neighbours that have to date been at the very least sympathetic to the resistance..." Finally, al-Rubaie asserted, it would "legitimise the Iraqi government in the eyes of its own people."

He also took a carefully-worded shot at the Bush administration's actions in overruling the centrepiece of Iraq's reconciliation policy. "While Iraq is trying to gain independence from the United States," he wrote, "some influential foreign figures" were still "trying to spoon-feed our government and take a very proactive role in many key decisions."

McCain can still save some face by insisting that his own plan to withdraw was "conditions based" all along however substantial momentum appears to be growing for the notion that conditions are ripe for substantial withdrawal. The National Journal Online expresses this point with these words:

McCain even used the dreaded buzzword himself on Friday during an interview on CNN. When asked by Wolf Blitzer why Maliki told the German magazine Der Speigel that Obama's 16-month timetable for withdrawal was the right one, McCain's response was a bit off-message.

"He said it's a pretty good timetable based on conditions on the ground," McCain said. "I think it's a pretty good timetable, as we should -- or horizons for withdrawal -- but they have to be based on conditions on the ground."

To McCain, the important part of this debate is that any withdrawal of American troops needs to be "conditions-based." But offering a rough withdrawal timeline -- as he did during his speech at the GI Forum -- and repeatedly telling voters in New Hampshire that "we will withdraw" is a far cry rhetorically from his support for a 100-year troop presence in the region.

Going forward, the key sticking point may be the status of forces agreement (whether comprehensive or interim) with particular emphasis on the immunity given US troops and domestic Iraqi control over our occupying forces.

As for the campaign, Newsweek's Andrew Romano summarizes as follows:

For months, the Democratic nominee has advocated a rough 16-month timetable for withdrawal, and for months, his Republican rival has said such a schedule would amount to "surrender." That was a fertile ground for debate. But last week the White House announced that President Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki had agreed on the idea of a "time horizon" for withdrawing American troops, and Maliki told German newsmagazine Der Spiegel that U.S. troops should leave "as soon as possible, as far as we're concerned." "U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama talks about sixteen months," he said. "That, we think, would be the right time frame for a withdrawal, with the possibility of slight changes." All of which forced McCain to admit, in an interview Friday with CNN, that 16 months is a pretty good timetable." In other words, vamanos.

This kind of consensus may be good for the country. But unfortunately it's bad for McCain's campaign.

Yes, this is good for BOTH countries. If Iraq is to succeed as a nation we MUST remove the training wheels and give them the chance to ride that bike successfully, pretty much on their own. Yes, we must help (if asked) but with "over the horizon" forces and naval security for the deeper waters off Iraq's tiny coastline.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

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Heroic giving up? (#106213)
by timothy

What place ( possibly: what vision ) does the Iraqi government realistically have for itself in the region minus a viable military and security? It does not have either at present.

While those who would swallow them up would be quite patient to wait until they are at their weakest, ( the most US forces come home..) exactly what body count of Iraqis are you wanting to wager on their skills to do anything? It is one thing to publicly desire good will and skill, etc. It is another to simply allow Iraqis ( or Afghans ) to get killed and frightened back into subjugation to tyranny simply to make hay against ones political non-favorites here.

On a certain level the easy solution is "let's go home and let them kill themselves." I suppose after hundreds of thousands of bodies later those who said the whole war was over "oil" would simply slink away when no oil was had and yet tyrants and threats to US national security were genuinely killed. Those who said the war was over "oil" would half-heartedly say they were wrong but glad for the bodies to prove it? Or that they were glad we went and got none so they could accuse forever with no proof?

The psy-op war against the US is to catch us in a false opposite argument and win an emotional victory no matter what happens with regard to that false argument. You seem to be buying into one half of that false opposite ( oil -no oil versus appropriate -inappropriate nation parenting) in the guise of being a philanthropic parent wanting the child to have a chance at independence no matter external circumstances. You simply have another twist on "let's give up": give up --for the emotional benefit of the Iraqis instead of for ourselves.

Newsweek? National Journal? Daily Standard? C'mon Bill. Why not just get a press release direct from Tavistock or the Aspen Institute to get a synthesis of both sides of that false opposite that still results in "let's go home and leave them to die after we promised them a new life. Again."

I have always been very much opposed to keeping an entire people enslaved in Islam and calling that "victory" and "broadmindedness". But to simply leave any to die after having promised them support ..who does that except those psy-oped into doing so? China with Chiang Kai-Shek. Vietnam. The Shah in Iran. Now Maliki? Four for Four? The Aghans? Five for five? Who was the source of those defeats --every time. Those that wanted the security of the US? You know better. Who cares what Maliki says? He still thinks he has to get permission from men to do anything despite all the 'allah' talk and "Iraqi people" talk. They get killed what does he care?

Proverbs 24:10-12 If thou losest courage in the day of trouble, thy strength is small. Deliver them that are taken forth unto death, and withdraw not from them that stagger to slaughter. If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not, will not he that weigheth the hearts consider it? And he that preserveth thy soul, he knoweth it; and he rendereth to man according to his work.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Respectfully, timothy (#106240)
by Jordan

I think you're misconstruing Bill's point. Withdrawing troops from active combat/patrol missions is not the same as "let's go home and kill themselves." Bill's advocating a strategy of withdrawing troops but remaining engaged in the region & committed to the stability of Iraq. The moral case of Iraqis who have literally staked their lives on American support aside, pretty much all thinking people realize that chaos in Iraq is a threat to peace & security for everyone. Please don't make the assumption that you're arguing single-mindedly anti-war crowd, here.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

part of the overall psy-war.. (#106246)
by timothy

is to seem to parse out what is straight forward into finer and finer arguments so that even patriots buy into arguments and defend what is in reality fiction based on false presumptions merely spoken stereotypically over and over.

I'm not saying Bill is a whiner or a anti-war peacenik. But the effects of that peaceniking are evident in a host of otherwise staunch supporters of the war: they are just getting tired. But getting tired does not equate to victory.

Where in the "region" ought US forces to go? Naval battle groups are not an answer: too bunched for security. One missle from Russian or Chinese, or even British or Israeli sources made to look 'Iranian' or "Palestinian" takes out 3500 people that way while Islam gets the credit simply to keep us involved in a vital war that we have to in anyway. They are going to do what they have to do to survive. The Brits and Israelis can get upset over that statement, but war is war. Survival is survival. This is war. We're spread out now as we need to be to avoid that very scenario.

That's quite beside the leave and stand-by argument assumes re-taking territory we once held easily at the cost of more American lives. It assumes time and all other logistics to do all that.

How is that leave and stand-by argument essentially different from the simple "leave" of the peacnik no matter how Bill feels about differentiating himself from peacenilks in other areas?

An example:

many people can be lead into defending arguments that place them in ideological agreement with nazis/fascists ( population control, euthanasia, etc..) even though they have made a life of decrying nazi-ism and literally hate fascist ideology when aware that's what is being directed at them.

The effect is the same no matter what particular emotional set about a term or side one may have. You stay in proximity to a germ long enough you get a little sick. There is more to the war than just the guys on the front. The people of the United States are being psy-oped to basically agree with their enemies and make them think it was a spontaneous and courageous move on their behalf in "free" will.

Psalm 106:35,36 But they mingled with the nations, and learned their works; And they served their idols; and they were a snare unto them:

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

It helps if you don't build an entire politics (#106255)
by Jordan

on avoiding resemblance to someone else's politics. Anxiety of influence is an extremely confining habit, and not at all pragmatic.

For instance: Nazis love parades. I love parades. I'm not giving up parades just because Goebbels thought they were splendid.

Similarly: part of what I want to do in Iraq would make "peaceniks" happy. Part would make war hawks happy. I don't care about either of those coincidences. My philosophy is not theirs, and I feel no need to avoid actions they might approve of just because it might create the wrong impression.

Here's what we should do: stop trying to provide law and order in a country where we don't speak the language or have even a four-year-old's understanding of the culture. Iraqis should be doing that, the sooner the better. We should help that process along. We should not be "re-taking territory" because we have no reason to be taking territory in the first place. Iraq is not ours and we have no good reason, and, indeed, no *bad* reason to try and claim it. Turning Iraq into a US colony state is a terrible idea.

Our military focus should be fast and flexible, and aimed at hitting the points most likely to weaken Islamist radicalism militarily as well as psychologically. The peaceniks will oppose that objective as well but, once again, I don't much care.

The fact that my ideas resemble other people's ideas does not mean I agree with those other people.

You stay in proximity to a germ long enough you get a little sick.

Stay a little longer and you'll be forever immune to the germ. Provided you don't die, of course. Exposure to the germ isn't the danger -- succumbing to it is.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

"Exposure to the germ isn't (#106265)
by timothy

"Exposure to the germ isn't the danger -- succumbing to it is"

That was the point..

Your post is well written but it isn't a solution. It's a wish. I've got the same wish: we win quickly and not in accordance with mere nationalistic pride. Your analogy of a mere coincidental resemblance of ideas is true but not relevant in this particular when it is the same as losing the war ( as Iraq at present is weaker than South Vietnam when we left there even though South Vietnam had an American trained "army" and "intelligence units", "police", etc..) and isn't comforting to those who will suffer if we leave. The mere existence of Iraqi forces doesn't equate to Iraqi victories.

As for the culture, it doesn't work to provide stability. THEY don't even 'understand' it. That is plain from all history. Trying to keep the non-understandable culture intact is evil and a recipe for failure.

In fact we have to take and keep territory. That's war. Fast and light doesn't necessarily mean "from a distance". Up close and personal is the best psy-op.

If it is a matter of Christian duty as a free will objective: .. because they can be polished to seem not lame and the physically blind we don't need to practice the truth to them? Because they have oil and we are falsely accused of wanting all the oil in the world for ourselves as a coincidence of proximity...

( BTW: it's good to see this is a drupal site. Gives me some examples. I'm just now learning it. )

1Corinthians 4:7 For who makes thee to differ? and what hast thou which thou hast not received? but if also thou hast received, why boastest thou as not receiving?

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Who said anything about winning "quickly"? (#106372)
by Jordan

The entire problem with Bush's Iraq strategy is that it expects quick solutions to problems that are decades old and centuries in the making. The rush to topple Hussein's regime before adequate geopolitical support could be obtained, the great hurry to debaathify the army and disband the police, the clumsy, horrifically corrupt contracting process attempting to remake Iraq as a laissez-faire Republican paradise on the two rivers. Every single move has been defined by stubborn, unimaginative impatience, and the results have been disastrous.

I foresee us being involved in Iraq and shoring up its government for *decades.* That's not a wish – it's pretty close to a fact. But the US military is not going to be very useful in that process. Why? Because they don't understand the local politics, can't speak the language, can't effectively patrol the streets, can't investigate crimes, protect individuals from extortion, root out corruption, purge hostile militias, control the secret police, or effectively adjudicate property & territorial disputes. Iraqis should be doing all of those things. We can and should offer tremendous financial, political, and logistical support to the Iraqi government, as well as the credible threat of force, but we should not be trying to micromanage a civilization in a place where we are utter strangers.

Iraq was a stable Muslim country for centuries; the Mongols, the Ottomans, British & now Americans have caused far more chaos than the indigenous population ever has, schismatics or no.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

The problem is Islam (#106675)
by timothy

..not some complex functional theocracy of "economics" wrapped around another supposed complexity that puts itself forward as having the imperatives of religious theocracy but with a face of non-religious 'ideas' called "social justice" to make up a DNA of "how things are".

Ataturk, even though Muslim at least understood that by making the whole of Turkey illiterate overnight by proclaiming that a new language would be simply made up as the new written Turkish, understood that making everybody start over it took the power out of the troublemakers hands: they would have to start over. These days that means new computer fonts; new keyboards, etc. That would be a very effective method of curtailing trouble.

But simply making an idol of Islam because they "did" as if they were not forcibly "converted" at some point in the past to a system of spirits their fathers abhorred but had supposedly matched up religions and "chosen" the one they thought gave them the best competitive advantage in the marketplace is wickedness and insanity.

You can't make a lie the truth. The people in Islam have been trying to make reality match a lie. It can't be done. It isn't just that "they haven't tried hard enough or with the right tools".

There are a lot of people that don't know that. They think that honoring Islam does the Muslim an emotional favor and in that kind of favor, the individual Muslim will supposedly be relieved of mere negative emotions "and thus" suddenly live a better life and by extension among themselves and others. That is simply keep those enslaved in a lie in that lie and smiles at them benignly as if they were children who couldn't understand truth anyway while do so in a manner that is supposed to telegraph absolute sincerity and indeed, chivalry!

Change the written language. Anti-Christ at the least has got to start over: it takes enough power/spirits from the "educated elite" AND the Mullahs long enough for a breather and in that breather the people see they have been had by a lie as Hitler said of propaganda "stereotypically repeated over and over". The whole psy-war has to start over --both sides. The people get a rest.

Matthew 5:45 that ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

You're talking about forced conversion in the same breath (#106704)
by Jordan

as you denounce Islam -- because Muslims once practiced forced conversion! You believe US troops should conquer and hold territory in Iraq long enough for Iraqi Arabs to "get a breather" so that they can see the "lie" of Islam and convert to Christianity? That's the same thing as conversion by the sword, dude.

I hope you realize that neither I, nor most Americans, nor the US Constitution itself will permit the use of our military and treasury on such a proselytizing crusade. A mission like that runs counter to everything this country was founded on, and everything it stands for.

Islam might be *your* problem, but it is not *our* problem.

By the way, on forced conversion. What do you think about the story of what happened to the "Marranos" and "Moriscos" in the decades after the Reconquista?

Lisbon, April 1506. At least 2,000 conversos are killed, after Dominican & Aragonese friars incited the people. Indirectly it was this massacre that brought the Portuguese Inquisition, ironically intended as a way to allay popular fury and restore peace between the "Old Christians" and the forcibly converted Jews & Muslims.

The rumor spread at once that the Conversos of the entire kingdom had united to make common cause. This increased the hatred of the populace, and the New Christians were attacked in Gouvea, Alentejo, Olivença, Santarém, and other places, while in the Azores and the island of Madeira they were even massacred. These excesses led the king to believe that the Portuguese Inquisition might be the most effective means of allaying the popular fury.

The Portuguese Conversos waged a long and bitter war against the introduction of the tribunal, and spent with some satisfactory results immense sums to win over to their cause the Curia and the most influential cardinals. The sacrifices made by both the Spanish and the Portuguese New Christians were indeed astonishing. The same Conversos who from Toledo had instigated the riot of the communes in 1515, Alfonso Gutierrez, Garcia Alvarez "el Rico" (the wealthy), and the Zapatas, offered through their representative 80,000 gold crowns to Emperor Charles V if he would mitigate the harshness of the Inquisition (Revue des Etudes Juifs, xxxvii. 270 et seq.). All these sacrifices, however, especially those made by the Mendes of Lisbon and Flanders (see Gracia Nasi), were powerless to prevent or retard the introduction of the Holy Office into Portugal. The Conversos were delivered over to the popular fury and to the heartless servants of the Inquisition. They suffered unspeakably. At Trancoso and Lamego, where many wealthy Conversos were living, at Miranda, Viseu, Guarda, Braga, and elsewhere they were robbed and killed. At Covilhã the people planned to massacre all the New Christians on one day; and to achieve this the more easily, the prelates petitioned the Cortes in 1562 that the Conversos be required to wear special badges, and that the Jews in the cities and villages be ordered to live in ghettos (judiarias) as before.

Similar stories abound in those centuries in Spain, Germany, and the Orthodox Russia. Interestingly in these centuries, Jews and Muslims fleeing the pogroms, massacres, Inquisitions and "foreskin checks" of Europe found safe haven in Ottoman Turkey, as well as North Africa, Flanders, and some degree north of the Pyrenees in France. After the Iberian expulsions of the 17th century, and the later Russian pogroms, the process accelerated. Most European principalities practiced forced conversion (or expulsion) fairly frequently throughout the medieval and early modern periods.

Doctrinally speaking, both Christianity and Islam have always forbidden conversion by force.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Your slip. (#106683)
by aireachail

I think it's showing.

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Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

What of the Mormons? (#106678)
by Bill White

Or the Hindus?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Actually, (#106268)
by aireachail

the best PsyOps preclude the necessity to get "Up close and personal".

And the perfect PsyOp would preclude even the need to "take and keep territory".

That's all pretty basic stuff. But I have to admit; this is pretty special:

As for the culture, it doesn't work to provide stability. THEY don't even 'understand' it

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Erm...so when can we leave? (#106225)
by aireachail

You know...in a high-level 1 or 2 paragraph sort of response?

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Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

when God makes it so (#106248)
by timothy

and not until then.

There are no recognitions as conditions to be recognized "we're in" to say "now" for the free will to act because there is no free will.

If in fact we had been on a Christian campaign, instead of actively keeping the enemy in arms and in lie to falsely prolong the war, the war would be over. The true enemies, the provocateurs, the hidden hands behind the scenes would have had to reveal themselves and at least shift gears in the psy-war. It ain't just "al qaeda" and its more than Islam and a kind of "Islamic nationalism" or "hijacking of a peaceful cult".

Romans 8:25-28 But if what we see not we hope, we expect in patience. And in like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered. But he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he intercedes for saints according to God. But we *do* know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Excellent. (#106254)
by aireachail

I take it then, that should God act through the next President to say...withdraw all US forces from Iraq within the next 20 months or so, you & I (and the "peaceniks") will all be of the same mind *?

* not that that matters, of course.

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Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

So when can we leave? (#106235)
by Bill White

After we convert all the Muslims to Christianity. Or so it would seem.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Spoilsport! (#106236)
by aireachail

I was all set...had my fresh bag of Pop-Secret and a cold beverage at the ready.

(But I understand that you couldn't help yourself.)

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Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Ecch... Maliki isn't lying, but this isn't the truth either. (#106200)
by BlaiseP

There are several different versions of the Yankee Go Home argument afoot in Iraq.

Version 1: Get out right away, as fast as you can. We're sick of looking at you, and you looking at our women.

Version 2: Get out, but not too fast, because I can grift you for reconstruction money for a while, then I can start grifting the Iraqi government, but I need your money so I can prime the bribe pump in Baghdad.

Version 3: I'll say "Yankee Go Home" on the street. But I'll have a nice ha-ha with you over chai over at battalion HQ. Really, stick around as long as you can, because while you're here, I can build up my own little street crew and extort all the merchants in this neighborhood. I'll call my street crew Sons of Iraq, so you'll pay their salaries, but really I'm the warlord and you're a non-Arabic speaking ring-knocker jackass out of West Point who wouldn't know shit from shinola, and you're only here because you want that CIB on your uniform. You're as much of an opportunistic warlord as me, effendi. Would you like my boys to fire a few rounds over your head so you can tell a great war story back in Marietta Georgia when you run for Congress in a few years?

Version 4: Yankee Go Home, because you blew up my house and never paid for it. My son went off to join the Mehdi Army and got killed. But I'm a widow in a refugee camp in Jordan, and my voice doesn't count.

Version 5: Yankee Go Home. And take me back with you. I'm the college graduate with a degree in Organic Chemistry who learned English at Ohio State, but I was stupid enough to come back here in 2002 and now the only job I can get is tagging around with your dumbass soldiers who have less education than me. I wear a ski mask, which is pretty hot and scratchy in 120 degrees Fahrenheit, that's 48 celsius, but you Americans never went metric. Oh, and take my family too.

Version 6: Yankee Go Home in 16 months or so, that's a good idea, Mr. Obama said so. Heh heh. Every time I say "Obama" I might as well say "Frau Blucher", some Bush horse is going to neigh, and I find it amusing. Little things amuse little minds, ah me. I'm an Iraqi politician, trying to get re-elected, and I could care less if you're here or not, as long as you keep the power on in the Green Zone and I love those Little Debbie cakes from the PX. I keep the AC set at 15 degrees celsius, that's 60 for you American idiots, a remark I will never make to your face because I know goddamn well you're never going to leave this Green Zone. It's a paradise. We Arabs have this idea about Paradise, we call it Jannah, the Garden. Palm trees, dates, an oasis. Well screw that, Paradise features air conditioning, power 24 hours a day, and Little Debbie cakes. Think I'll say it again. "Obama" (frightened neighs in Washington)

You cynic, you. (#106278)
by Gramsky

Careful, Blaise (#106241)
by M Scott Eiland

Even when employed in well-written prose, profanity is still verboten at the Forvm.

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Yeah, well-written English requires a few of those Saxon words (#106250)
by BlaiseP

You know, the ones Guillaume le Bâtard, yes, that's bastard, who promptly re-styled himself Guillaume le Conquérant, William the Conqueror decided were Nasty Words, substituting all the French words for the same old English words everyone had used before he came, and they weren't foul words then. You know, the polite words for those crude Saxon four letter words all had duplicates, not only in French, but in a private courtly language we only see in the songs of the courtiers of the time, who sang bawdy songs before the great and powerful of Europe. Believe me, below those silk gowns and embroidered vestments, copes and capes and crespinettes, they were a lot like us. Just didn't take as many baths.

Maybe we ought to relax that rule about Saxon Words. It's been a millenium since 1066 and somewhat more. I'm a bit put out by mating up shinola with anything but its rightful pair in the English expression.

You're Welcome To Make The Case (#106252)
by M Scott Eiland

I've certainly got a few favorites among those words that would come in handy now and again--but that's an issue that probably should be dealt with via referendum by the membership. Until the rule is changed, though, it remains a rule.

--

I propose, arguendo, for theoretical purposes only (#106256)
by BlaiseP

and only as a moot proposition, that such Saxon Words be restricted to a mode of speech which cannot be interpreted as invective against another poster or his cause.

Were such a Saxon Word to appear, or any concomitant Racist Epithet, in the course of conversation, intended to provoke another, yes, I am against all such invective. Obscenity seems tolerable among us, insofar as nobody is ill-treated or maligned thereby. We tolerate nipples and asses and the use of Nitpicky Bitches, I stand against anyone who would insult a fellow poster.

But Saxon Words? Jeez.

Seconded. (#106258)
by aireachail

Some, such as your shinola choice, are clearly terms of art.

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

And in some places? (#106287)
by aireachail

It's a person's livelihood.

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

that's actually not a bad description of human nature (#106220)
by timothy

..after being bound in a lie that is Islam for centuries.

But simply describing evil doesn't mean we have escaped it or helped anyone to escape it.

The question is how to prevent that from being the truth in the future.

1Corinthians 8:9-13 But see lest anywise this your right to eat itself be a stumbling-block to the weak. For if any one see thee, who hast knowledge, sitting at table in an idol-house, shall not his conscience, he being weak, be emboldened to eat the things sacrificed to the idol? and the weak one , the brother for whose sake Christ died, will perish through thy knowledge. Now, thus sinning against the brethren, and wounding their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore if meat be a fall-trap to my brother, I will eat no flesh for ever, that I may not be a fall-trap to my brother.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Timmy, did I say anything about Islam in there? (#106224)
by BlaiseP

Let me clue you in to something. Do you think God's really sitting up there working out if people who worship in idol-houses (which Muslims don't, they hate idols, learned that from the Jews by the way) can't be decent human beings?

I'm a Christian, and I've been tiresomely repeating that fact around here of late. And you're just tap-dancing on my last little patient nerve. God will judge the world, not you or me, which I find a great relief to me personally, and for that reason I don't judge other people on the basis of what they believe or don't believe, or what version of God they believe in, or don't, because every definition of God is grossly insufficient. Did Jesus have anything to say about who's going to hell and why? Maybe you need to read a bit more of Mark 9, which I had occasion to quote today.

If God is merciful, and I believe he is, I think he's going to sort mankind out on that basis. He's going to look at how we treated each other, not based on whether, as the Woman of Samaria asked Jesus, whether or not God is worshipped on Mount Gerizim or in Jerusalem. He said "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

I like that. In spirit and in truth. And if truth means anything, it means reason. Which just might imply something rather alien to your philosophy: Islam is no more evil or good than your faith and mine. God would have a fine laugh at the End of Days, and call us all a bunch of ninnies for clinging to these stupid ideas about what Enlightenment meant in this life. He made us and loves us all. Yes, even Muslims. And Atheists. We don't love each other, and that's a real problem. Not for him, but for us.

From a Christian Perspective (#106302)
by AndrewSshi

Okay, I kind of hate being in a similar camp to Timothy, but I just have a few thoughts.

If you believe that one of the central moments of human history and development was the incarnation, passion, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, both man and God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, then Islam is intensely problematic. After all, the Al Aqsa mosque has the words "Allah is not begotten and does not beget" written along it outside.

One can trust that God is more merciful than we give Him credit for and that the sacrifice of Christ may apply to those who do not explicitly acknowledge the Incarnation. One can also have an intense respect for the Muslim's desire to seek the will of God, for the intensity of religious devotion that makes the average Christian look fat, lazy, and undisciplined. But...

But...

One of Islam's key doctrines is that it vehemently denies the divinity of Jesus Christ. I respect the fervor and devotion of the world's Muslims. But as for the question of whether that was the Angel Gabriel who choke-slammed Muhammed in the cave, well, I'm not going to answer it directly, since my anonymity has already been somewhat compromised (Bernard Guerrerro, I think, from usenet experience, probably tell you exactly who I am, and I've unfortunately left enough evidence here that anyone who cared could), and I sometimes grade papers by devout Muslims. I will say, though, that there is a problem with the fact that the two faiths have competing and contradictory truth-claims.

Whither Mitt Romney? (#106321)
by Bill White

I note the apparent Mormon belief that well intentioned, kind hearted non-Mormons (recall Isaac Asimov's fascination with his wife's religion, one which declared HE was the Gentile) shall share a pleasing afterlife, merely as sexual neuters without the spiritual reproductive organs devout Mormons shall retain. And then there are God's female consorts.

Thus I ask, which of these truth-claims are more directly contradictory?

(a) Mormonism and the Texas Baptists; or

(b) Islam and the Texas Baptists?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

My Theology Is Rusty. . . (#106305)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .but can't that identical observation be made regarding Judaism? After all, there's a lot of culture and history over the past two thousand years that directly stems from the fact that devout Jews do not accept the divinity of Jesus Christ. It's not an issue to me as an agnostic, certainly--it just seems like an odd objection to have specifically to Islam, when at the very least it also applies to Judaism.

--

I am part of an interfaith council (#106312)
by BlaiseP

We tossed this grenade around a while, and this is what we concluded among ourselves.

Theology is a matter of interpretation. Jews differ widely on the matter of halakha: who is a Jew, yet all believe in the concept that some are Jews and others are not. Muslims differ within their schools of theology, but they have a safety valve: when the discussions get too heated, they will all stop to say the Shehada, the phrase all converts to Islam must say at the moment of their conversion. Hinduism cheerfully admits it has no theology: their faith is a collection of stories, their worship a matter of doing. Buddhism grins slyly at all the other faiths: knowing all this business about theology is irrelevant to the matter of personal holiness and living in the light of eternity.

If, therefore, we cannot agree within our own faiths, how much more ridiculous are our quarrels with other faiths? I could never become a Muslim, but I rather like certain aspects of Buddhism, and a profound admiration for the ancient panoply of the Hindu pantheon. My own faith arose from within Judaism, which arose as a refinement of the worship of El the Sky God.

I despise the patronizing of other faiths, especially the American Christians who now pat Jews on the head, as if they were our little deluded brethren. The Jews I know smile and inwardly retch at this sort of thing: they remember Christianity's track record. Christians and Muslims remember the Crusades.

Therefore, it doesn't matter to me, theologically, that Jews don't accept Jesus Christ. I don't accept the Jesus Christ who led Europeans to systematically discriminate and persecute Jews. Guess those Christians forgot Jesus was a Jew.

Islam also condescends to Jews. Islam's Isa, their version of Jesus has no resemblance to the Jesus of the Bible, or even the Jewish version of Jesus. At this point in time, so far removed from the facts, it's like Derrida said: "No one gets angry at a mathematician or a physicist whom he or she doesn't understand, or at someone who speaks a foreign language, but rather at someone who tampers with your own language."

your last nerve? (#106257)
by timothy

God sent His only Son expressly to make you special from all others on the planet in Him. It cost Him decades of earthly suffering in flesh, then the skin off His back and His life.

Your reaction?

1. say you believe in Him so as to fit in with a loose societal norm BUT ..deny Him by saying you are certainly not special at all ( that would make the pagans mad and you being such a nice guy and sharing their exact emotional response set and all..) as well as denying God is Jesus Christ simply to make hay with God-haters who are fallen in a lie from which they cannot extricate themselves and which cannot profit them.

2. Then that spirit in you bluffs with that same emotional response set in exact soldiarity with those who hate Jesus Christ ( while you say "I'm a Christian!" ) so as to seem being angry or hurt is the same as having moral high ground as denigrating Jesus Christ which you say is in fact honoring Him. In fact you are simply "honoring" a particular emotional dogma you really think is universal and a-religious so as to be part of all that calls itself religion.

You really shouldn't fall for the lie that this war has been any kind of Christian campaign so as to think you have to say you are a Christian to fit in with those you want to be around. Take a closer look and you'll see this war has done more for Islam at the cost of Christian blood than any war in history. You should say what you mean and openly loath Jesus Christ, openly say He is nobody to you rather than seeking to pretend that compromising with those that openly do is the "Christian" thing to do and that God Himself would approve of all you do as denigrating Jesus Christ.

Have you never asked yourself or has God never told you why there are other people who don't think like you do? Apparently not. Your pretense is to think they all do to avoid having to understand the differences and then at least pretend to get angry when you are called on it.

God came and died for me. That makes me special. God died to make me personally special to Him. Yes. No question about it. But for you I'm supposed to denigrate Jesus Christ by lumping Him in with those who falsely claim powers of vaguely defined human "love" that you don't even have to be new creature to understand --no need for any Divine action at all?

What?

Jude 1:10,11 But these, whatever things they know not, they speak railingly against; but what even, as the irrational animals, they understand by mere nature, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! because they have gone in the way of Cain, and given themselves up to the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

I looked through chapters 10 and 11 of Jude (#106279)
by Gramsky

but maybe my copy of Mr Hardy book is a different
edition.

Amazing (#106260)
by HankP

I had no idea that your skills included mind reading.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Ha (#106223)
by HankP

Islam is a lie but Christianity isn't. Right. But then, you had no choice but to write that and I had no choice but to respond.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

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