Clearer signs of success, plenty of clouds in the forecast


To start with, let's look at the numbers (courtesy of Engram), and they are based on data from the Iraqi Coalition Casualty Count.  To be consistent, they're from the same source as the ones I used during a tough month.  In September, civilian casualties plummeted, and the October figures are even lower.

Why is this statistic relevant?  Because it is a measure of how well the counterinsurgency operation is working.  One of the main precepts for COIN doctrine is to create a stable environment--thus enabling economic and political progress--so the reductions in civilian deaths are a solid indicator.  The numbers also indicate that this is a trend, not a one-off.   See the 3-month moving average.

Baghdad is still a tough town, but civilian casualties are similar to the countrywide trend.

The primary reason for the drop is that both execution-style killings and suicide terrorist attacks are way down.

Suicide bombings are al Qaeda & Co.'s calling card, and these bombers killed 75 in both September and October.  In August, prior to Petraeus' Congressional testimony, the number was 600±, mainly because al Qaeda (or a like-minded affiliate) pulled off a massive synchronized attack on the Yezidis.  It is likely that they will get away with future spectacular attacks, but given our offensive against them AND given the people's rejection of these religious extremists, al Qaeda is clearly losing in Iraq, in my opinion.  Even Osama bin Laden recognizes the dire straits his franchise is in.  And it's not just Iraq.  More and more Muslims are rejecting bin Laden's backward and barbaric ideology, as measured in declining confidence...

...and approval of the use of suicide bombings.

The above data is from Pew Research.  Although al Qaeda is relatively small in numbers in Iraq, the influence they have (or had) on events is (or was) significant.  It was al Qaeda who successfully ignited sectarian violence when they bombed the Golden Mosque in February 2006, and you can see how the Shiites responded after that.

After the Golden Mosque bombing, Shiite paramilitias began an ethnic cleansing campaign, focusing on military-age males, and it was somewhat curtailed last February (or late January) when Muqtada al Sadr announced that he would stand down his militias during our surge campaign.  But in doing so, al Qaeda was able to ramp up its attacks, and it's plausible that al Qaeda also did so in response to our more intensive operations.

It seems reasonable to me that the extra-judicial killings by Shiite militias in 2006 kept the number of al Qaeda suicide bombings down.  With the Shiite paramilitias less active in early 2007, al Qaeda went on a months-long bombing spree.  Now that al Qaeda is tamped down and now that Muqtada al Sadr has stood down (again) and made peace with his Shiite rivals, the level of violence has dropped dramatically.

To be sure, some of the reduction in violence in Baghdad is because mixed neighborhoods have been cleansed of Sunnis by Shiite paramilitias, and Joshua Partlow found one of the toughest places in the country, but he also didn't provide the full context of how that situation came about (after Partlow's misleading reporting on civilian casualties, I view his journalism with a dose of skepticism), and Sadiyah is just one neighborhood.

The one thing I consistently hear from embeds after they've returned from Iraq is that it's a complex place.  The situation can vary from one city to the next, and in a big city such as Baghdad, from one neighborhood to the next.  Jeff Emanuel's observations are a typical example:

The other thing, of course, is complexity and nuance, and the attention span of the so-called "average American." People want black-and white, cut-and-dried, good-and-bad, success-or-failure reports from Iraq that they can hear in thirty seconds or skim in two minutes, and anything that purports to be accurate reporting or analysis will have trouble competing with that. For example, here's my tome on the current situation in Iraq as I saw and experienced it (link). It was finally (thankfully!) published by the American Thinker, a great online magazine which doesn't shy away from analysis and realistic reporting. However, before they agreed to run it, it was turned down (or ignored) by at least five print publications. Part of the reason for this is, I believe, the length and shades-of-grey style of description; another part, though, is the fact that almost all publications which would run such a piece have already picked their side of the "Iraq is going swimmingly vs. Iraq is an unmitigated disaster" divide, and refuse to publish anything which contains the least bit of negativity (for the former) or the least bit of positive news (for the latter). Anything accurate from Iraq, of course, will likely contain a bit (or more) of both; that's just the nature of the beast.

The situation in Iraq, rather than being black-and-white and easily explainable, is a million different shades of gray. The individual bits of reality seen there are so fluid that the conclusions one draws from them are often invalid before they can be expressed. Further, the complexity of the situation on the ground there is very difficult to grasp without witnessing it first-hand. Being back home for even a few weeks is enough to lose touch with its intricacy, as I found out during the two months I was home this summer between my April-May and August-October front-line embeds.

Perhaps the only thing more difficult that grasping that complexity – surrounding both the positive and negative developments there – is attempting to communicate it effectively to those who either cannot or have not been to the various front lines in Iraq to witness it for themselves. However, as one who has chosen to travel there myself for the express purpose of gathering information and communicating it to the people at home who can and will use it to make an informed decision on the situation there, that is a task that I have taken on, for better or worse.

Unfortunately, doing so means that those who are staunchly against the war there, as well as those who are for it, will be disappointed, as the news from there is rarely purely positive or purely negative, but, as mentioned multiple times above, is generally a dark or light shade of gray.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't make a judgment on an entire nation based on what's going on in a single city or neighborhood.  There are a couple of other metrics worth talking about, and one of the them is U.S. military casualties, which have also dropped considerably.

Even more impressive is that the above numbers are declining despite the fact that our operations are still highly kinetic and our soldiers have a greater presence on Iraqi streets.  In terms of infrastructure, electricity generation in September was higher than any other month since June 2003.

It will be interesting to see how it goes in the coming months.  There's more data from Michael O'Hanlon at Brookings.  One number that gives me concern is the number of Iraqi troops and police at Level I (fully independent) and Level II (in the lead with Coalition support).  The more troops at these levels, the fewer American troops needed.  In Petraeus' slideshow last September, there were about 95,000 Iraqis at Level I and II.  By spring 2008, we'll be reducing our troop presence by around 30,000 and we'll need to have a good number of Iraqis trained up by that time.  Another metric for concern is the numbers of Iraqis that are internally displaced or have left the country.

In the political arena, advances are still being made in the provinces, cities and tribes, but not on the national stage.  It looks like Fred Kagan is doing a little goalpost moving, but it sounds fair:

As the violence recedes, leaders in all the contending Iraqi communities will naturally seek to address their internal differences. Our interest in the outcome is limited: As long as the Iraqis are committed to the principle of resolving their differences through a political process rather than violence, and as long as any settlement they reach is sufficiently fair so as not to reignite the violence, then our interests will have been secured. The Iraqis can continue to debate the oil law, provincial rights, federalism, and so on for decades (as Americans have debated civil rights, Social Security, immigration, health care, and states rights) with no harm to our interests, assuming their debates are channeled through a political process. And this is almost certainly what will happen. Even if the current Iraqi parliament passed all the benchmark legislation Americans desire tomorrow, Iraqis would continue to debate, argue, adjust, and press for reforms on these key issues, probably for generations. That is what a self-governing people does.

This is a good liberal position, stressing the importance of process over results, though I doubt that any liberals will agree with Kagan.  The goals for political advancement have not been met and probably need to be revised.  In any case, if the surge strategy can help Iraqis resolve their issues through non-violent political means, and if the country can keep from devolving into a theocratic dictatorship, then that might be the best we can expect.  I still view success in Iraq as it becoming a free, peaceful non-theocratic representative republic, and on that basis, we very well may not succeed.

I know that quite a few on the Left are unwilling to credit the surge strategy for the recent successes.  But if things went to hell instead of improved, wouldn't the Left be blaming the surge for the regress?  If success happens while the strategy is in effect, it doesn't seem unfair to me to give the strategy at least partial credit.  After all, the COIN plan is helping to create this environment.  It sort of reminds of the time when Prince of Tides received seven Oscar nominations but Barbra Streisand was denied Best Director.  At the Academy Awards, Billy Crystal did a little song and dance, capping his routine with this line:  "Seven nominations on the shelf, did this film direct itself?"

Disclaimers:  I don't think we are winning or that we have "turned the corner" in Iraq, but nor am I convinced that Iraq is "irretrievably lost".  It is beginning to look like al Qaeda is clearly losing.  I believe the current surge strategy is the best plan available, and I range from mildly optimistic to mildly pessimistic that it will succeed.  Currently, there are clear signs that it's working.  It may very well have been implemented too late, and it's likely that our manpower levels are too low, but I'm giving the plan 'til year end before I make a judgment on whether we should stick with the current strategy or opt for Plan B (orderly, phased withdrawal of American troops).  In their September testimony before Congress, the Petraeus-Crocker team bought themselves a Friedman unit, so it looks like the current strategy is going to last at least through March 2008.
--

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Hey BD... (#65656)
by Wagster

Here's another theory that has much to be said for it. It does, however, beg the question: what is behind the Mahdi army cease fire? Is Al Sadr trying to make the American exit easier? Has he struck a political bargain with the U.S. or the Iraqi government?

--

More Wagster!

More than one answer (#65671)
by Bird Dog

On the al Qaeda side, they haven't been able to pull off big spectacular attacks since last August, and the noose is tightening around them. Brandon makes the fatal analytical mistake of not making distinctions between Shiites, al Qaeda & Co. and Sunni insurgent groups.

On the Shiite side, we are going after the Special Groups, trained and armed by the Iranian Quds forces. This is having some effect.

Sadr's standing down is another factor. His Mahdi militia went militant (unclear whether it was by his orders or not) during the holy observances in Karbala. The Badr Brigades whomped 'em and, a few days later, Sadr announced that he would stand his militias down. My theory is that rogue JAM militias did it, and by taking his militias off the table, he's letting others do the work for him when those rogue groups act up. But I don't think that was only reason. His militias were taking hits from both the Badr and coalition forces. In order to preserve what he had left, he made a tactical withdrawal. He's done it in the past when his back was to the wall.

I disagree with Brandon that the Shiites were "really doing a job on American forces". The numbers don't support his hypothesis. Our casualty rates were relatively low despite significantly more intensive combat operations.

It must be a human nature sort of thing for the hard partisans. They just won't or can't acknowledge that their political opponents are doing things to actually improve the situation, choosing instead find something--anything--other than the Bush-led forces to give credit to for the improved environment. I know Republicans had a hard time with that very thing when Clinton was president, refusing to recognize in his early years that the economy was humming along pretty good.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I agree that... (#65672)
by Wagster

... there are multiple variables and we can't ascribe the drop to any particular one, but where do you get this:

I disagree with Brandon that the Shiites were "really doing a job on American forces". The numbers don't support his hypothesis. Our casualty rates were relatively low despite significantly more intensive combat operations.

If you look at icasualties.org you see that May-Aug were bloodier for the US than any other summer.

I also have to doubt that the Mahdi army really had an inferior position vis a vis the Badr brigades. Mahdi has always been the dominant shiite militia. I smell a strategic move, not a cowering away.

--

More Wagster!

Sadr v. Badr (#65686)
by Bird Dog

The Badr Brigades were poised to rout al Sadr's militias. I seriously doubt al Sadr withdrew because he was in a position of strength.

For U.S. casualties, your facts are true, but they're unmeaningful because--as you can see on the graph--the numbers don't show clear seasonal patterns. May was unquestionably a tough month, but we didn't start Operation Phantom Thunder until mid-June±. By August (Sadr made his announcement in late August), our casualty rate was significantly lower. Face it. Brandon's theory is fatally flawed, and he neglected to even mention that the primary focus of our operation was against al Qaeda, not the Shiite paramilitias.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I'm genuinely puzzled by your post (#65717)
by Wagster

What do seasonal patterns have to do with anything? It isn't part of my argument or Brandon's, as far as I can tell.

By August our casualty rate was significantly lower? No it wasn't. It was right about the average for the year. Then after the ceasefire it plunged by 50%.

And how does that fact that the focus of our operation was Al Qaeda somehow negate Brandon's hypothesis?

As for your skepticism about the Mahdi Army's strength... what is your basis for it? In December the Iraq Study Group estimated their strength at 60,000. Even Hakim himself doesn't claim more than 10,000 fighters. Where is the evidence for your claim of an imminent rout?

--

More Wagster!

You're the one who said... (#65758)
by Bird Dog

...we had more casualties this May through Aug than in previous May through Augs, citing icasualties.org. You just made a seasonal comparison.

Our casualties are a function of our own operations and what the enemy does. In mid-June, we significantly changed the intensity of our operations, so it stands to reason that we should have incurred more casualties starting in mid-June. As it turned out, the trend of declining casualties is unmistakeable, and it started well before Sadr withdrew.

What's more, Sadr stood down earlier this year when Petraeus was just beginning the surge strategy. In April or May, Sadr returned from Iran and ordered his militias to fight coalition troops. That was a major reason for the higher casualties in April-May relative to earlier this year.

As for the sizes of the respective armies, it's hard to know the size of the JAM militias because they're fractured and Sadr has lost control of a significant portion, and your Badr link is over four years old. I read somewhere that the Badr Brigades were superior, and it was a credible source.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I made a seasonal comparison... (#65764)
by Wagster

... but I made no claim of a seasonal pattern. Looking at the whole year doesn't help your case. As I said, August casualties are at about the yearly average.

--

More Wagster!

Are the Badr Brigades (#65689)
by Bill White

Ally or enemy of the United States? And, is this a black/white question?

Wikipedia, for the quick & dirty assessment:

Because of their opposition to Saddam Hussein, the Badr Brigade was seen as a U.S. asset in the fight against Baathist partisans. After the fall of Baghdad, Badr forces reportedly joined the newly-reconstituted army, police and Interior Ministry in significant numbers.

Currently based in and around Karbala, the Badr Organization effectively rules that city and other parts of southern Iraq. It has played a leading role in fighting insurgents there. While the organization has lessened the burden on coalition troops there have also been tensions between the two. There have been reports of gun battles between the organization and British troops that occupied the area. The government of Iyad Allawi has accused the Badr Organization of assassinating Iraqi intelligence officers on behalf of Iran, something the organization strenuously denies.

The organization has also been accused of engaging in 'death march' campaigns against Iraqis whom they deem to be immoral; i.e. unchaste women, shopkeepers that sell alcohol or western consumer goods or people believed to be engaging in homosexuality or cross-dressing.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Hm, very interesting. The "why the ceasefire?" question (#65659)
by Jordan

is a good one. Lacking any other information, if Sadr has in fact made some kind of deal with the US or is otherwise responding to US pressure or blandishments, then we ought to be completely fair and chalk that up to a success of the overall surge strategy. If, however, Sadr is acting for his own reasons or with orders from Iran having nothing to do with or even actively opposing US interests, then not so much.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

What if it is both? (#65690)
by Bill White

Also, recall that everyone (even the Administration) has admitted that the surge will need to draw down by March 2008.

If Sadr knows we WILL draw down come Spring 2008, then to not fight now better preserves his own forces.

And yes, that would be due to the surge (and the known end date for the surge) but not necessarily in a manner favorable to the Administration.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Mind if I expand on your argument, Bill? (#65722)
by tomsyl

Why wouldn't exactly the same thing happen on a country-wide scale if the Dems had their way and fixed a date certain for withdrawal of US troops from Iraq? You know, the so-called Terrorist Independence Day? Yet every time someone brings that up here, he is ridiculed by liberals supporting the Dem party line that (in their perception, anyway) got the New, Improved Congress elected.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

That was my expected result, yes. (#65738)
by Punditus Maximus

My point has been, from start to finish, that whenever we leave, Iraq will immediately do whatever it's going to do -- hang together, collapse, partition reasonably friendly-like, or have bits of it annexed by Iran.

If setting a date and then executing that action causes fewer US lives and less US treasure to be fruitlessly lost delaying the inevitable, then let us do so.

This is irrelevant, however. We aren't leaving those bases behind under the Bush Presidency, and that's that.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

This actually doesn't make much sense at all. (#65739)
by Jordan

US troops have *zero* effect on the situation in Iraq? The time & manner of our departure will have *zero* influence on the consequences of our departure? I don't see how any analysis could arrive at those conclusions.

'Inevitable' sure is a big word to be slinging around so casually.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

In order: (#65740)
by Punditus Maximus

1) US troops have a significant effect on the situation in Iraq when they are there.

2) The time and manner of our departure -- within the set of possible manners of our departure (e.g. we won't nuke Baghdad on the way out) -- will have little to no effect on the state of Iraq a year or two after we leave.

3) Basically, my theory is that Iraq has oil, is next to Iran and Turkey, and is comprised of Arab Sunnis and Shiites, Kurds, and a spattering of ethnic minorities. These facts are not going to change, and they lead to certain risks. Separately, Iraq policy continues to be driven by domestic concerns (witness Gen. Petraeus's mention for the Republican but not Democratic VP nod, wonder where they got that notion), so it is going to continue to be awful and stupid. Thus, even if there were some theoretical policy which could affect my theory above, it will not under any circumstances be implemented.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Disagree with 2, Agree with 3. (#65746)
by Jordan

But 3 is a separate issue and by no means 'inevitable' either. The Petraeus doctrine wasn't inevitable either -- sure it is near universally accepted as the only way to even approach the idea of imposing political/cultural change on a foreign population, except within the Bush administration who evidently believed appearing tough is all you need. But the COIN doctrine is now a fact, and an improvement even if it comes too late to avert years of damage.

Anyhow, my disagreement: there's a huge difference between withdrawing rapidly & regardless of consequences, vs. staying to prop up a "friendly" power balance and ensure neighboring countries don't feel the need to rush in in order to protect themselves. Setting an arbitrary deadline to be gone -- the main antiwar plank -- is almost, but not quite, as dumb and ill-considered an idea as invading in the first place. Making our departure conditional on stability is the only responsible policy I can see. Then there's the whole separate issue of incompetence....

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

There is no COIN doctrine. (#65789)
by Punditus Maximus

We have fewer than half the personnel required to implement COIN, and as has been noted elsewhere, we've started substituting air power.

Separately, COIN requires an end state in mind, and US policy in Iraq has been characterized by incoherence and a near-total incapacity to plan beyond the next poll.

Now, if it's your contention that we need to stay in Iraq in order to impose our will on that populace as part of a geopolitical game . . . you've convinced me even more that we need to pull out immediately. That sort of imperial fantasy never ends at all well.

There will not be stability once we leave. If we make stability a precondition of leaving, we will:

1) renege on our promise unless we were planning to leave anyway, so there is no difference, and
2) get stability until we leave. At which point Iraq will devolve into chaos again shortly thereafter.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

COIN light is better than COIN not at all, (#65803)
by Jordan

which is what we had before. To the degree that previously violent neighborhoods are now far less violent, we are doing some good there.

My only contention is that we leave Iraq in the best possible shape we can, minimizing the Bush/Rumsfeld damage as far as possible. It's a moral as well as practical, security-related obligation.

There will not be stability once we leave.

This is a completely unfounded assumption, and the core of our disagreement. It matters quite a bit how & when we leave. A realignment of regional power is certainly going to happen whether we will or no -- it's happening right now in front of our eyes. But we do have the ability to influence how violent that realignment will be, as well as what factions/nations will be ascendant. Basically, if our allies are weak now, they will get stronger with time and support, just as they will get weaker if we cut off their time and withdraw all support. Iranian/Turkish border crossings, even occupations are a hell of a lot more likely if we leave things in their current state. The current government in Iraq will experience an inevitable crisis of legitimacy/no confidence if we abandon it, as we're a bulwark of its support.

Be all that as it may, your basic assumption is: "Nothing we do will have any influence on events in Iraq once we leave." It's logically nonsensical. How we leave, and when we leave, are going to have an effect on what happens next. That's just how the world works.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

It is my belief that... (#65815)
by Punditus Maximus

...the forces pulling Iraq toward its destiny are stronger than any institutions we are capable of leaving behind.

There may have been a time when we could have affected the outcome. That time has passed.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Destiny? Inevitability? (#65820)
by Jordan

Those words don't reflect secular history as I know it. You're telling me not only that you know what is going to happen in Iraq with 100% certainty, but that that outcome is going to come about regardless of anything we could do about it, and we can't even do so much as minimize the impact. I can't help but be skeptical of such absolute certainty.

But, even if your imperfectly informed guess (since that's all it is) is correct, then what? Iraq as a failed state, in a full scale civil war & partially occupied by its neighbors would be a first order national & global security problem threatening key allies, strategic energy supplies (as well as of course oil dollars), and balance of power in the world's most volatile region. We'd have no choice but to address it.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I don't know what's going to happen in Iraq. (#65822)
by Punditus Maximus

I do know that we are far, far too immorally and incompetently lead to conceivably be a positive influence on the outcome. A nation which systematically tortures people is not a nation which has the capacity to be a positive influence as an occupier.

You continue to contend that there is a goal for US policy in Iraq, other than to stay in Iraq. You also seem to believe that there exists a competent set of US policymakers and policy implementers who are both prepared to address the goal which does not exist and capable of doing so. These are both grossly ahistorical assumptions.

I appreciate that you want very badly to undo the harm we have caused. But wanting does not make it possible.

Perhaps someday when our national moral and political sickness has eased we can discuss the utility of our military interventions.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Positive influence is indeed impossible (#65838)
by Jordan

if March 03 is the benchmark. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld have done untold damage -- unfortunately we have no choice but to contain & ameliorate that damage as much as possible because there's no way it can not be our problem. Pulling troops out of Iraq will not magically make Iraq someone else's problem. See: allies, regional stability, energy markets, etc.

But you're wrong to say the only policy in Iraq is to stay in Iraq: clearly tremendous resources are being spent (often wasted) trying to reach a point of stability that leaves US-backed factions in power. That's an extremely low bar for success given the damp dreams of a few years ago, but it is in fact the only choice available.

So: whatever rhetoric you hear from Washington, any responsible US foreign policy is going to find itself shoring up Iraq against US enemies. It's not an impossible task, given that political situations tend toward stability anyway.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

have more faith (#65840)
by Micky Love

any responsible US foreign policy is going to find itself shoring up Iraq against US enemies. It's not an impossible task, given that political situations tend toward stability anyway.

I guess you mean Iran by US enemies, and I would believe you if the US were engaged in dialogue with the Iranians. That would be a nice way to leave Iraq in a peaceful and stable manner. But that isn't happening. I think rather than worry about stability, US intends to use Iraq as a staging ground to launch attacks on Iran. This is already happening with the US sponsoring Kurdish terror groups. If stability is your concern, then US meddling in Iraq should be alarming. It's not just regional stability at stake either. China and Russia have many interests in Iran which I doubt they want to see disturbed.

trying to reach a point of stability that leaves US-backed factions in power

I think you need to have more faith in the Iraqi people. As long as you fear and mistrust them, you will see the need to occupy Iraq, and the divide between the US and Iraq will grow. I think it's madness to look upon the installation of a Egyptian-style stooge in Iraq as the (only!) recipe for success. These places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are precisely where the hatred of the US is most acute. I really don't see anything attractive in this at all.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

How many centrifuges whould we ask Iran to give up? (#65858)
by tomsyl

I would believe you if the US were engaged in dialogue with the Iranians.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

That depends (#65912)
by Micky Love

How many centrifuges is the US willing to give up?

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Dialogue at this level is meaningless. (#65968)
by tomsyl

Assuming you're serious, predicating reduction of US nuclear fuel refinement capacity as a condition to Iran abandoning its nuclear program is absurd on so many levels that it is not worth addressing. AFAIK even Ahmadjinebad hasn't tried to pull that one.

If you're "hypothetically" speaking for Iran on this, my response would be that (1) we are a nuclear power and you are not - get used to it; and (2) our nuclear power is a very big stick, and would be used against you in extremis - get used to that, too.

No one said anything about reality being fair.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

all i'm saying is (#65997)
by Micky Love

If you want to negotiate, you gotta be prepared to give something in return. If not centrifuges, then something else. Something presumably that the Iranians want. Quid pro quo and all that. Otherwise it's just a matter of issuing ultimatums - not conducive to promoting peaceful relations.

Why this obsessing over Iran's centrifuges anyway? A centrifuge has never been used to kill an American.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Actually I worry about the same thing. (#65848)
by Jordan

Reading between the lines, conspiracy-mongering a little bit, but I too think the Cheney bloc in DC is intent on some kind of strike against Iran, and yes that would be an unmitigated disaster for regional stability. I'm predicting that it'll never actually happen, and the Cheneyites will go back to sulking for a decade or two. But then I thought we'd never invade Iraq either: I thought all the buildup was bluster to create political pressure. Imagine my shock & awe. Whether Bush is on the Bomb Iran bus already or not I can't tell.

I think you need to have more faith in the Iraqi people. As long as you fear and mistrust them, you will see the need to occupy Iraq

You've got me dead wrong. The threat isn't coming from the Iraqi people, but from the various groups of thugs who are doing their best to take over and start running those people's lives. It's the suicide bombers, IED groups, & death squads who are trying to prevent stability at all costs (at least until they're in a position to dictate terms). I'm not for imposing anything at all, just for stopping those people from running things.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Re: buildup (#65851)
by Punditus Maximus

I thought all the buildup was bluster to create political pressure.

This was a place where Ken White and I agreed -- the buildup meant invasion. You can't move that many people somewhere and then do nothing with them.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Sure you can, it's less expensive than war (#65852)
by Jordan

and we spent the entire Cold War era doing exactly that in various countries. An armored division here, a ballistic missile installation there, steaming carrier groups up the straits of Hormuz, etc. etc. Though maybe you guys were right if there was no place else for all those troops to *go* but into Iraq or sit in the Gulf -- I never looked at those details. Still, lesson learned in this case: Bush don't bluff, though he used to bluster aplenty.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Little bit of both, seems to me and there's the (#65658)
by Ken White

chicken - egg bit...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

Chickens and eggs? (#65691)
by Bill White

That is an excessively sophisticated concept for Beltway insiders to grasp. Remember who we are dealing with, here.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Sigh. True. Lost my head... :) (#65693)
by Ken White

How come the world is alleged to be getting smarter and those inside the Beltway seem to be determined to go in the opposite direction... :(

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

Because our system selects for dumb. -nt- (#65694)
by Punditus Maximus

.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

How about this for the quote of the day? (#65723)
by tomsyl

. . . as a political culture, we are deeply skeptical (and rightly so) of about the product of this government. Their is much to be proud of in our history and traditions. But the government we now have is a failure. Nothing important should be trusted to its control, but everything important is.

Laurence Lessig in Code 2.0, speaking about Congress and the Administration's attempts to regulate and tax the Internet. I highly recommend the book, BTW.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Yeah - but that's not a feature, it's a bug... NT (#65696)
by Ken White
For us, yes. -nt- (#65697)
by Punditus Maximus

.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

First Off... (#65610)
by JKC

thanks for the excellent diary and the obvious hard work in researching it.

Personally, I think it's too soon to judge the surge a success or failure. That will come in late spring/early summer when US forces draw down (because we've run out.) If the level of violence continues to decline, then the surge will have been a success. If they don't, it will have been a failure. AFAIC, the jury's still out, although I'd feel better if we were seeing a bit more progress on the political front.

The Neo-Cons Have By in Large Been Purged, Adults in Charge (#65629)
by Traveller

...now, or at least that was the Headline with the appointment of Ambassador Ryan Crocker and Gen. David Petraeus.

I was skeptical, considering our history in Iraq I had good reason to be, but the numbers are undeniably good as noted by BD, especially in reference to Troop deaths as well as Iraqi Civilians, though the fact that the ethnic cleansing has already been accomplished and this gives better number automatically, is also true.

This is all very good...but none of this takes away from the cock-up that Iraq has been for the past several years. While I was away, I had to opportunity to see Bush give two speeches...and I still wanted to reach into the TV and smash his smarmy, sanctimonious, smirking face...

He is still the worst President ever and my Enmity remains entirely unabated.

Still, it may be possible to pull some form of acceptable resolution from Iraq...and I hope that happens.

I would also parenthetically note that having a President being among the most hated (?) person in the world has not helped the recent unhappy developments in Pakistan.

Best Wishes, Traveller

Yes, violence has gone down (#65602)
by Wagster

Clearly violence is on the downturn. And I don't doubt that the surge had a lot to do with it.

But a big part of the reason why violence has dipped is that the ethnic cleansing has succeeded. The areas of mixed population have diminished drastically. And in Baghdad at least, the surge has institutionalized the ethnic partitions, building big walls around neighborhoods with checkpoints at their entrances.

This reduces violence but it leaves us as far away as ever from national reconciliation.

--

More Wagster!

I agree with Wagster (#65615)
by Bill White

Violence is down in large part because ethnic cleansing is far closer to being complete.

And, the Anbar Sunni rejected al Qaeda.

Now that we have this success, can our soldiers come home?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

When you say 'clearer signs of success' (#65600)
by Gabriel

what do you mean by success? Do you mean the situation is improving from where it was or do you mean success for the enterprise as a whole? In other words are you saying that you see signs that the decision to go to war in Iraq may end up being worth it after all?

--

This place is my vacation.

Success from where we were in January (#65603)
by Bird Dog

We are are finally getting the situation back to where it was before the Golden Mosque bombing, except this time the strategy has troops on the streets and embedded with Iraqi units, and we're holding the areas that have been cleared instead of doing drive-bys, and Sunnis have joined the coalition. If the trends continue, maybe then we can say the current situation is better than it ever was since we removed Saddam.

I presume you've already read my definition of success for the enterprise as a whole. It's right there in the post.

As for whether the effort was worth it, not the way Bush-Rumsfeld ran it.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Well (#65604)
by Gabriel

I can agree with that.

But how do you reconcile the possibility of a non-theocratic Iraq with their Constitution that clearly states Islam as the official religion and that Islam's teachings supersede the Constitution?

--

This place is my vacation.

In every Muslim-majority country... (#65612)
by Bird Dog

...the constitution or dictator gives the nod to Islam, that the government would abide by the Prophet's teachings. You can't get a recognized government without such a deferral, and it has to do with Islam itself, which doesn't just confine itself to spiritual matters. Iraq is no exception, and neither is Afghanistan. The more relevant issue is how government actually conducts itself when it comes to respecting human rights.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

To support BD's point, (#65616)
by Punditus Maximus

this is also the case in a nontrivial minority of majority-Christian countries. This includes places like Great Britain (granted, different ones in England and Scotland), Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Greece, and bits of Switzerland.

One can have a basically free country with an established religion, especially if that nation is less diverse than the US.

I don't think that Iraq's a good choice for that, personally, given the Sunni/Shia split and the presence of Christian and Druze minorities. Of course, the latter two are rapidly disappearing, so that may be less relevant.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

So then (#65613)
by Gabriel

what do you mean by non-theocratic? I'm not trying to be obtuse I am trying to understand what outcome you think would make the cost of the war (lives, money, prestige) worthwhile.

--

This place is my vacation.

A secular government where mullahs don't run the show (#65614)
by Bird Dog

Ayatollah al Sistani is in favor of a secular Iraqi government, for example. Muslims will run things, and they will be influenced by the religious community, but there won't be a Guardian Council (like in Iran) making the decisions.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

they are islamist. they oppose secularism (#65643)
by Micky Love

You are aware of Prime Minister Maliki and his Dawa party, aren't you? They are not necessarily mullahs but their raison d'etre is to oppose secularism. The Sciri party and Sadr's bloc are formed along much the same lines. They are not secular but Islamists. Many members sought refuge in or actually fought with Islamic Iran against Saddam's secular regime during the Iran/Iraq war.

Since the invasion, these Islamists are the forces that the US has been allied with to varying degrees, even going so far as to arm and train their militias. The Iraqis have also voted them into positions of power. If you don't like what they are promoting, and I don't, I'd like to hear who you propose to take their place, and how you'd manage a switch which would overturn practically every policy undertaken in Iraq.

In a word, we may favour secularists, but the White House and the Iraqis have different ideas.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Dawa is influential, (#65655)
by Bird Dog

but they are one party competing among many. The way the constitution is set up, Kurds and Sunnis have a say in the government's affairs.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

OK, a few questions (#65619)
by Gabriel

What, exactly, does the "mullahs not running the show mean"? After all no mullahs were running Iraq under Saddam so I don't think it's the mullahs themselves that are the problem. What I am trying to understand is what is that concerns you, from a US security perspective, about 'mullah rule' that justifies us going into Iraq. Why, for example, is a Guardian Council any worse that the Saudi government or the Pakistanis from a US security POV?

--

This place is my vacation.

Yeah. (#65601)
by Model 62

We used to be reminded, from time to time, what the goal was -- Israel leaning Democratic beacon; 19th century American republic; non-theocratic, america-friendly democracy, but we don't hear that so much anymore.

However, I've been in the declare-victory-and-leave column for months now, and from that POV, the recent numbers look pretty good. Let's do like some of the generals advise: declare AQI whipped, announce the locals capable of meeting the remaining challenges, and retire to the big air bases on the outskirts of town.

Agreed . . . (#65617)
by Bill White

We've won, so why stay?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Because winning = bases. -nt- (#65618)
by Punditus Maximus

.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Answer your hypothetical: (#65593)
by Punditus Maximus

But if things went to hell instead of improved, wouldn't the Left be blaming the surge for the regress?

Things went to hell long ago, are still in hell, and will be in hell tomorrow.

Separately, we wouldn't "blame the surge" for the failure -- we would have acknowledged the surge as yet another failed attempt.

The surge did part of its job; it allowed the folks who really want to believe to have a pretense on which to hang their hats. The other part of its job -- convincing the American public that our adventure in Iraq is worth twice as much a year as national health care -- was not successful. It was a domestic political policy, from start to finish.

There is no Iraqi central government. Our most successful provinces are those where we have armed undemocratic militias and have them keep the streets. Violence is down because so many people have been murdered or forced from their homes that almost all of Iraq was ethnically cleansed. The only reason this is counted by success is that it is happening under a President with a "R" after his name, simple as that.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Sounds like you answered it for me, (#65599)
by Bird Dog

but it's an answer that I don't agree with.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

al Qaeda is clearly losing (#65585)
by Bill White

Okay, I can agree with that.

However, before we removed Saddam, al Qaeda had ZERO presence amongst the general population within Iraq.

Saddam may or may not have harbored a few celebrity terrorists and may or may not have given material support to al Qaeda BUT the people of Iraq were not supportive of al Qaeda prior to regime change.

Thus, this point is a draw at best as we now return to status quo ante.

Iran and Pakistan are the HUGE issues going forward.

Saddam regime change has greatly empowered Iran. Now, we either commit to another campaign of indefinite duration to eradicate Iranian influence in Iraq (and with a giant new power plant deal with Iran investing in Iraqi infrastructure I do not see us winning that) or we accept an increased role for Iran within Iraqi politics.

If Pakistan explodes, we will lack sufficient resources to simultaneously address Iraq, Iran and Pakistan.

Iraq was (at best) a distraction from our real war on radical Islam, from Day #1.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Even without Iraq, we don't have sufficient resources to (#65606)
by Ken White

'address' Iran without mobilizing ALL the Guard and Reserve indefinitely. Even with all the Guard and Reserve mobilized, Pakistan would be extremely difficult if not impossible. Both at about the same time are beyond anything short of full mobilization including a draft and then you're looking at several years of war.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

here's a few things to chew over (#65582)
by Micky Love

I don't see much clear success here. I don't see the US casualty figures being all that important. They were never high to begin with. Anyhow you evidently never took to heart the teaching of Comrade Mao, a chap who fought and won a real guerrilla war:

The enemy advances, we retreat. The enemy camps, we harass. The enemy tires, we attack. The enemy retreats, we pursue.

The Americans are even boneheaded enough to inform everyone, from bloggers to baathists, that they'll end the surge in March next year.

There is no evidence that millions of refugees are returning to their homes or that economy is picking up. There's no evidence that secularist parties are gaining power or influence.

In fact the number two army in NATO, Turkey, is on Iraq's border threatening to invade. This was not the case before the surge. There is a Leninist terror group, the Kurdish PKK, which is launching attacks on Turkey and Iran from Iraqi soil. There has been much talk of this in the news recently though you don't appear to consider it worth mentioning. The PKK are unlike your beloved al Qaeda. There are large numbers of them and they preach a gospel that has traction with the Kurdish public.

There's a story about these attacks here, with an admittedly pro-Turkish bias:

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=49710

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Mao Said a Lot of Things (#65590)
by AndrewSshi

One of which was that a guerrilla fighter is like a fish swimming in a sea of friendly locals. AQI has mostly lost that sea.

The PKK business is worrisome but it doesn't threaten the entire structure of Iraq. It's been going on in some form or another since 1991. Hell, there was a time in 1996 (IIRC) when Turkey pretty much occupied all of Kurdistan for a few months.

There are definitely problematic issues on the horizon, but I don't think they're the ones you're addressing. The biggie, of course, is that it's one thing to get local Sunnis to turn on Abu Ayub al-Masri. It's something else entirely to get them to turn on Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri. AQI delivered nothing but death and maiming to Iraq, whereas the Ba'ath party delivered some pretty tangible benefits to Iraq's Sunnis.

way out of their depth (#65598)
by Micky Love

I am not convinced that the al Qaeda ever had its sea. If it did, it certainly wasn't in Iraq. Maybe Pakistan...

If terrorist attacks can provoke Israel or America into retaliation, then we can safely assume the Turks are just as capable. If they do, it may not simply be the structure of Iraq that is at risk but the entire middle east. At least the danger exists and can't be ignored (as Mr Dog do) or brushed off (as you do.)

one thing to get local Sunnis to turn on Abu Ayub al-Masri.

I'm not sure that Americans can take credit for getting Iraqis to turn on him. As I understand the guy arrived in Iraq on American coat-tails, and Iraqis need no encouragement from the US in taking a stand against him. I think this mind-set that victory lies in "getting Iraqis to turn on X, Y or Z" is hogwash. American politicians are skilled in manipulating the rubes along lines according to what a woman can do with her foetus, or whether homosexuals can marry each other etc, but Iraq is no friendly sea for the Americans. They are way out of their depth.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Actually (#65970)
by Ken White

"American politicians are skilled in manipulating the rubes along lines according to what a woman can do with her foetus, or whether homosexuals can marry each other etc..."

They aren't or we wouldn't still be argunig over those gems...

"...but Iraq is no friendly sea for the Americans. They are way out of their depth."

Heh. Iraq is no friendly sea for any westerner; they're all out of their depth in the ME.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

Heh. (#65984)
by Punditus Maximus

The fact that we're arguing over it is testimony to the capacity to obfuscate.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

On both sides of the questions... :) NT (#65988)
by Ken White
ML, what did you mean by the phrase (#65969)
by tomsyl

"Mr. Dog do"? IOW, was it a grammatical slip, or something else?

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

sometimes i write these comments backwards (#65998)
by Micky Love

so sorry if slips like that get through

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Links

Conservative
Liberal
Moderate/Mixed/Non-Partisan
Non-Political/Reference

Related Sites -

Polisci Applied (Aaron)
Intrepid Liberal Journal (Intrepid Liberal)
Obsidian Wings (Bird Dog)
Open Hand/Open Eye (locutas)
Red State (Bird Dog)
Swords Crossed (brendanm98)
Wagster Speaks (Wagster)
WatchingAmerica (BlaiseP)
The Social Pathologist (TSP)

Foreign Affairs -

Abu Aardvark
'Aqoul
American Footprints
Council on Foreign Relations
CSIS
Democracy Arsenal
Intel Dump
The Fourth Rail
War and Piece

Politics -

Ace of Spades HQ
Andrew Sullivan
Balloon Juice
Belgravia Dispatch
Captain's Quarters
Crooked Timber
Curmudgeonly & Skeptical
Daily Kos
Democracy Arsenal
Eschaton
Firedoglake
Glenn Greenwald
Global Guerrillas
Hugh Hewitt
Instapundit
Jawa Report
Lawyers, Guns and Money
Liberals Against Terror
Matt Yglesias
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Moon of Alabama
New America
OxBlog
Patterico
Political Animal
Political Wire
Publius Pundit
QandO
Reality Based Community
Talking Points Memo
The Agitator
The Belmont Club
The Corner
Truman Project
Winds of Change.net

War -

Counterterrorism Blog
Iraq the Model
Jihad Watch
Small Wars Journal Blog

Economics and Business -

Angry Bear
Brad DeLong
Daniel Drezner
Mahalanobis
Marginal Revolution
Roubini Global Economics
The Big Picture

Science and Tech -

Bad Astronomy
New Scientist
Real Climate
Science Blogs
Scientific American
The Panda's Thumb

Legal -

Balkinization
Conglomerate
Ideoblog
Jurisdynamics
Law and Letters
Overlawyered
ProfessorBainbridge
ScotusBlog
Talk Left
The Becker-Posner Blog
Volokh Conspiracy

Sports -

Baseball Crank
Baseball Musings
Baseball Reference.com
ESPN.com
NFL.com
Only Baseball Matters
The Sports Economist

Books, Film and Music -

Amazon.com
Internet Movie Database
All Music Guide

News and Aggregators -

Asia Times
Boingboing
CNN
Digg
English Russia
Fark
Los Angeles Times
Memeorandum
MSNBC
Politico
Poynteronline
Slashdot
The New York Times
The Washington Post

References -

Wikipedia
Your Dictionary