Completely unacceptable


If there was any doubt about Russia's intentions to take over a sovereign nation, this should help dispel them:

Russia's foreign minister called for Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to resign and Medvedev said Georgia must pull its troops from South Ossetia and Abkhazia — the two Russian-backed breakaway provinces at the heart of the dispute.

The Russian government seeks to remove a legitimately elected president of a democratic and partly free nation, and it couldn't be clearer to me that they would prefer to install a Georgian toady who will do Russia's bidding. Ed Morrisey makes a fair point:

The demand for Saakashvili to resign should offend every free nation on Earth. Saakashvili represents Georgia, not the newly-birthed Russian Empire, and Moscow has no right to demand that a freely-elected president resign under force of arms.

The Ukrainian government should be worried, as should any other independent non-NATO nation that shares a border with Putin's Russia. Speaking of Putin, McCain has a funny-because-it's-true quote about the Russian leader:

Mr. McCain has called for expelling what he has called a "revanchist Russia" from meetings of the Group of 8, the organization of leading industrialized nations. He urged President Bush — in vain — to boycott the group’s meeting in St. Petersburg in 2006. And he has often mocked the president’s assertion that he got a sense of the soul of Vladimir V. Putin, who was then Russia’s president and is now its prime minister, by looking into his eyes. "I looked into his eyes," Mr. McCain said, "and saw three letters: a K, a G and a B."

Update I: After reading comments, I'm more than a little baffled that so many on left side of the aisle are blaming the victim instead of the aggressor. A NYT op-ed from someone who knows a little about the area:

But the truth is that for the past several months, Russia, not Georgia, has been stoking tensions in South Ossetia and another of Georgia’s breakaway areas, Abkhazia. After NATO held a summit in Bucharest, Romania, in April — at which Georgia and Ukraine received positive signs of potential membership — then-President Vladimir Putin of Russia signed a decree effectively treating Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This was a direct violation of Georgia’s territorial integrity.

It came after years of growing Russian efforts to assert control over these regions, for example, by distributing Russian passports to citizens and arranging the appointment of Russians to the territories’ governments. Mr. Putin, who is now Russia’s prime minister, oversaw a build-up of Russian "peacekeeping" forces in Abkhazia, which was clearly intended to provoke Georgia into a military response.

Yet Georgia showed restraint — in large part because Mr. Saakashvili understood that military adventurism would harm his NATO prospects. Moscow, in turn, transferred its efforts to South Ossetia, where pro-Russian rebels carried out attacks on Georgian forces and villages, finally provoking the response that Moscow had sought as a pretext to intervene.

This doesn't excuse the poor judgments that Saakashvili has made, but let's be clear that it's the Russians who've been playing offense in this conflict, and it's Russia that is violating international law by invading a sovereign country a fraction of its size. Why are so many so eager to appease Russia?

Update II: Since violations of international law seem to be of secondary concern to some of my liberal friends, I thought I'd cut and paste some analysis from Opinio Juris:

I’ll start with the legal issues. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are secessionist enclaves. They are unrecognized by any other state and, as such, are considered to still be part of Georgia. More generally, international law treats secessionist conflicts as matters of domestic law and politics.

However, international law is implicated by certain aspects of secessionist conflicts, including the protection of human rights, threats to international peace and security, and the activities of "third-party states." In cases of secession, a third-party state is any other state (besides the state in which the secessionist conflict is occuring) that somehow becomes involved in the conflict. Such involvement can range from being a mediator to try to end the conflict, to economic support, to military support, or to actual military intervention. Russia has at various points (and sometimes simultaneously) played all of these roles in the Georgian conflicts. More on that in a moment.

As for the law, the rights and duties of third-party states regarding domestic conflicts is an issue that is rooted in the concept of sovereignty: states have a basic duty not to intervene or otherwise interfere with the resolution of the conflict by the recognized government of the state. A more complete restatement of the principle is found in the Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations (GA Res 2625, The "Friendly Relations Declaration", avaliable here), a General Assembly Resolution passed by member states of the UN in 1970. Although, as a General Assembly Resolution, the Friendly Relations Declaration is not legally binding upon the member states, it is nonetheless of significant persuasive weight as to the state of customary international law.

The relevant substance of the Friendly Relations Declaration, and of the non-intervention norm, can summarized in a couple of clauses:

Recalling the duty of States to refrain in their international relations from military, political, economic, or any other form of coercion aimed against the political independence or territorial integrity of any State…

No State or group of States has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other State.

In regards to military intervention, the Declaration further states that "armed intervention and all other forms of interference or attempted threats against the personality of the State or against its political, economic, and cultural elements, are in violation of international law."

So, how can one assess Russia’s actions?

To start, we should keep in mind Russia’s arguments mentioned in my previous post: (1) we are not intervening first but rather responding to bad acts by the Georgain government; and, (2) we have a right to defend our co-nationals.

This first argument is probably trying to call to mind NATO actions regarding Kosovo. Russia is technically a "peacekeeper" in South Ossetia. But there are a few problems with this analogy.

First, the Russians maintained that NATO’s intervention in Kosovo was illegal; it is difficult for them to use it to now claim legality of their actions here.

Second, the facts on the ground are quite different– while it seems that Georgian forces did move first in South Ossetia, there is no evidence that they were undertaking any kind of ethnic cleansing. As for whether Russia, as a peacekeeper, is authorized to undertake bombing throughout Georgia, that is also an open question. I would, in part, need to see the terms in the peacekeeping agreement but I doubt it gives Russia such leeway for activity.

Third, to the other extreme, calling to mind that secessionist conflicts are internal conflicts and that third-party states need to respect the sovereignty of the state attempting to resolve its internal conflict, there is a rather strong argument that Russia acted precipitously and well beyond what could be expected under the circumstances.

Fourth, even though Russia is technically both a mediator in these conflicts and also a peacekeeper, it has nonetheless consistently supported the separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia since about 1994. Russia has supplied separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia with military equipment and at times supported them with actual military action, such as the recent Russian shoot-down of a Georgian surveillance drone. This assistance and diplomatic support has increased dramatically since Kosovo’s declaration of independence. As a formal matter, though, Russia still has not recognized either South Ossetia or Abkhazia.

Russia’s second justification for its military intervention is that it is in defense of co-nationals. However, this argument is based in large part on the wide-spread "passportization" of the populations on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. While Russia has had economic interests in these regions (moreso in Abkhazia) and there are many ethnic Russians in these regions, it is the handing out of passports to people living in these enclaves that has given Russia the fig-leaf of claiming that it is acting in support of Russian "nationals." Not very persuasive.

In sum, Russia’s intervention is fraught with problems as a matter of international law.

But not with the law of the schoolyard. Kenneth Anderson has an interesting perspective on the conflict, based on his time there in the early 1990s when he worked for Human Rights Watch.
--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

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McCain Backtracks (#109863)
by Harley

This doesn't sound good:

We, we will decide in subsequent days as whether degree of provocation and whe-- who was right and who was wrong.

From today's presser.

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Why is McCain being such an apologist for Russia and Putin? nt (#109873)
by stillnotking

.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Presumption Alert (#109753)
by Harley

So he's talking to the guy whose name he can't pronounce 'every day' and now he's sending his own toady delegation to Georgia, and sure, I get that a return to the Cold War gives the feeble codger wood...

But isn't this all a bit presumptuous?

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

More than a Bit (#109859)
by Model 62

Where's Timmy to remind us of Presidential Candidates past who dispatched envoys to troubled regions of the world to try their hands at foreign policy?

There was Nixon, of course, during the campaign in '68, sending messages to the South Vietnamese, but I'm too young to recall if he held a press conference before sending his messengers on their errand.

Window of opportunity? (#109739)
by Spartacvs

What's the betting Russia goaded Georgia into a stupid act they then took advantage of by adopting Bush's doctrine of preventative war to foreclose on the possibility of Georgia joining NATO?

If so, who best to wrestle that pig?

An old cold warrior keen to go into battle (literally) one last time yet already compromised by the existence of paid lobbyists for Georgia on his staff and the weakness of his party and its ideas in general after 8 years of the Bush-Cheney Administration? Or his challenger, the fresh new face, who though inexperienced has already demonstrated his abilities in formulating a workable plan for extricating the US from the Messinpotamia and least holds the promise of being Putin's intellectual equal?

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Show me (#109743)
by Bird Dog

You said: "An old cold warrior keen to go into battle (literally)..." Do you have anything to back up? Here's McCain's actual statement on Georgia, and there is nothing to suggest that McCain is proposing literal battles, let alone that he is "keen" to do so.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Bomb, bomb Iran (#109757)
by Spartacvs

That and the fact that he constantly reminds us how he knows how to win wars, as opposed to knowing how to prevent them, especially the unnecessary ones.

"And I told him that I know I speak for every American when I say to him, 'Today, we are all Georgians,' " McCain declared to loud applause.

Apart from the plagiarism and symbolism of stealing the refrain heard around the world in support of the US after 9/11. It's beyond dumb to continue reinforcing the mistakes the Georgian President has made with unqualified support for the guy.

Someone needs to sit that fool down and and explain a few unpleasant truths and sending Curly and Moe isn't going to get that done. Also rather presumptuous don't you think, to be stealing the initiative from Bush on America's foreign policy as a campaign ploy, that and all Americans?

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Slippery and slidy (#109782)
by Bird Dog

You elide, Sparti. It's very simple. Show me how McCain is keen to start literal battles with Russia. Your first paragraph is a non-answer. Your first blockquote doesn't make the case. Whatsoever. Your third paragraph is also a non-answer, and the plagiarism charge is bullsh*t. The rest of your diatribe affirms that you still support the Sparti Doctrine For Regime Change. Nothing new, and not on subject. Why are you being such an apologist for Russia and Putin?

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Moderators, this is unacceptable (#109813)
by Bill White

Why are you being such an apologist for Russia and Putin?

Bird Dog should not be permitted to make defamatory accusations such as this

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Eh. It's a sign of desperation. (#109815)
by HankP

When the arguments run out the smearing begins.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Desperation? From Bird Dog? (#109840)
by Jay C

Naaahhh... it's just his sense of outraged morality....

Why are you being such an apologist for Russia and Putin?

"Desperation" is when he starts embedding graphs and charts into his smears...

Seriously, Charles: you should know better than to take this tack: as I commented on BlaiseP's Russia/Georgia thread, it looks like "effectively pro-Russian" has become (and in only a week, wow!) the new version of the "objectively pro-Saddam" smear tossed at anyone who raised any objections to the invasion of Iraq (and well thereafter).

It might surprise you, BD, to find out that some of your fellow-posters at The Forvm - thinking people all, I'm sure - might just have some serious questions and reservations about the Bush Adminstration's (and/or Sen. McCain's) seeming support for Georgian adventurism (apart from sympathy at their being victimized by the Russians), and debate the point, without being "apologist[s] for Russia and Putin".

Both Russia and Georgia have blame to shoulder for this war: and the Russians, IMO, have the larger share: even if only because they are the larger and stronger party. And brutal barbarians at war, besides. But it's not taking sides to note that the Georgians (gratifying fantasy as it might be) are not entirely in the right, either. However many political points this might garner.

And by the way: when the Hon. John Sidney McCain III gets up on his video soapbox and blathers away about how "we are all Georgians" -
NB: he is NOT speaking for me, either. The central issue in this debate ought not to be who is "right" or "wrong", or "victim" or "aggressor"; but the wisdom of the US' getting involved (other than to try to halt them) in other peoples' petty territorial wars. Especially against major Powers like Russia.

I wasn't an apologist for Saddam (#109793)
by Spartacvs

when I opposed Bush's war of preemption against Iraq and I'm not an apologist for Putin or Russia now that I oppose McCain's empty rhetoric and bluster in respect to Georgia.

We don't need to restart the Cold War, or treat every little difference as a full blown confrontation. We need constructive engagement and recognition of the world for what it is and Russia's increasing influence in it and how to best shape that influence to the good.

As far as Georgia goes the debate, amongst 'Old NATO' countries at least, is likely to center around maintaining the alliance's strength by exercising understandable caution with respect to future invitees. Especially regarding those with demonstrable intent to provoke the Bear while living on the Bear's border and having a significant slice of their population who identify closely with the Bear or with the Bear as guarantor of their ethnic identity or semi-independence.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Look (#109825)
by Bird Dog

You're the one who was in favor of Putin and his government removing Saakashvili, basically taking the Russians at their word. Never mind that Russia violated international law in the process. Of course you're being an apologist for Putin and the Russian government. What else is there to conclude?

And who says a Cold War needs to be restarted? Not McCain. He neither said nor implied such a thing. And if you want to start whining about "empty rhetoric", what exactly has your candidate said differently? Very little, from what I see.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

The Georgian President (#109856)
by Spartacvs

needs to go, preferably he resigns under his own steam in acknowledging his own continued stupidity rather than give Russia the satisfaction of claiming they removed him. It is important to distinguish Georgian territorial sovereignty from the political survival of their idiot President, who seems to be primarily responsible for bringing about the conflict over S. Osettia and continues to stoke the fires of confrontation between Russia and the West in service of his own political survival.

What does McCain hope to achieve by sending his 'go to' team of Larry and Moe rushing to Saakashvili's aid? will the McCain campaign be picking up their tab?

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

It is not in Russia's interest to remove Saakashvili (#109857)
by Bill White

(as of today) and in any event, Georgians must be the ones to make this decision.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

All the more reason then (#109864)
by Spartacvs

for Georgia to be rid of him and the attendant grandstanding. Georgia needs a leader that can effectively deal with both the Russians and the West.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Agreed . . . (#109867)
by Bill White

Georgia needs a leader that can effectively deal with both the Russians and the West.

Precisely the same logic applies to John McCain and Randy Schuenemann.

I predict the Georgians will demand his resignation soon enough. Once the adrenaline fades.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Not if they are led (misled) to believe (#109874)
by Spartacvs

by McCain's delegation that the US stands fully behind Georgia and its President in the initiative to make S. Osettia a cause célèbre uniting the West in confronting Russia. Saakashvili has received his rebuke from Moscow on the battlefield, now he needs one from the West, which needn't be so public and can be done just as effectively behind closed doors just so long as it's done and Saakashvili is made to understand its import. But I don't see the visit from Curly and Moe achieving that or being designed to achieve much beyond McCain's own opportunistic grandstanding for the domestic US purposes of his campaign.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

#109825 is entirely non-responsive to the prior post (#109826)
by Bill White

It appears to me you are putting words in Spartacvs mouth and attacking him.

To ridicule the Administration for a bungled response to Katrina does not render a person pro-hurricane.

We've been baiting the Russian Bear and the Bear bit Georgia. Are they morally wrong? Perhaps. But America (and especially Randy Schuenemann) were boneheaded and stupid for thinking we could rely upon that Georgian leader to be a sensible ally.

If you poke at a bear with a stick, it will bite you. Film at 11.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

??? (#109942)
by Bird Dog

Sparti was agreeable with the Russian foreign minister's call for the removal of a democratically elected head of state. Sparti put his own words in his own mouth, reserving all his criticism for the Georgian and American leadership and none for the Russian aggressors. Bears will be bears, I guess. You can't expect them to be responsible for their actions.

Saakashvili made a serious mistake, but Russia did the goading and the intensifying. The Russians pulled the trigger incredibly fast when the Georgian president made his move because they planned it so. It was like a white queen taking a pawn, baited into an awaiting fussilade.

For all that US commentators and diplomats are still chattering about Russia's "response" to Georgia's actions, the Kremlin spent months planning and preparing this operation. Any soldier above the grade of private can tell you that there's absolutely no way Moscow could've launched this huge ground, air and sea offensive in an instantaneous "response" to alleged Georgian actions.

As I pointed out Saturday, even to get one armored brigade over the Caucasus Mountains required extensive preparations. Since then, Russia has sent in the equivalent of almost two divisions - not only in South Ossetia, the scene of the original fighting, but also in separatist Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast.

The Russians also managed to arrange the instant appearance of a squadron of warships to blockade Georgia. And they launched hundreds of air strikes against preplanned targets.

Every one of these things required careful preparations. In the words of one US officer, "Just to line up the airlift sorties would've taken weeks."

Working through their mercenaries in South Ossetia, Russia staged brutal provocations against Georgia from late July onward. Last Thursday, Georgia's president finally had to act to defend his own people.

But when the mouse stirred, the cat pounced.

The Russians know that we know this was a setup. But Moscow's Big Lie propagandists still blame Georgia - even as Russian aircraft bomb Georgian homes and Russian troops seize the vital city of Gori in the country's heart. And Russian troops also grabbed the Georgian city of Zugdidi to the west - invading from Abkhazia on a second axis.

But it must all be America's and Georgia's fault.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Did you See His Press Conference Today? nt (#109754)
by Harley

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Nope (#109780)
by Bird Dog

But I read this. Note the similarities in rhetoric:

McCain: "The impact of Russian actions goes beyond their threat to a democratic Georgia. Russia has used violence against Georgia to send a signal to any country that chooses to associate with the West and aspire to our shared political and economic values. My friends, we learned at great cost the price of allowing aggression against free nations to go unchecked. With our allies, we must stand in united purpose to persuade the Russian government to withdraw its troops from Georgia."

Obama: Democrat Barack Obama also issued another statement through his campaign: "Now is the time for action – not just words. It is past time for the Russian government to immediately sign and implement a cease-fire. Russia must halt its violation of Georgian airspace and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia, with international monitors to verify that these obligations are met.”

If Sparti is going to claim that McCain--based on his statements--is keen for literal battles, then he should be consistent and say that Obama is keen for the same thing.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

McCain's last sentence was fine (#109794)
by Spartacvs

Everything preceding it is either empty campaign rhetoric or belongs to a different era.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Gorby's quote from the WaPo (#109684)
by Bill White

What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.

If this is true, Georgia is the more guilty party. Will we ever know the "real" truth? I dunno.

Of note: Stalin was raised speaking Georgian, not Russian. In other words, there are NO saints in this region.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

It all boils down to this (#109683)
by Bill White

Gorbachev wrote today in the WaPo that Georgia launched massive rocket attacks on that Georgian city BEFORE the Russian invasion and even then Russia even went to the UN before invading.

If there is any truth to Georgia firing Katyusha rockets into Ossetian populated areas, Georgia will get little or no sympathy from most of the world.

Are Gorbachev's assertions accurate? I dunno. But that is one critical question.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Simple minded warmongering (#109645)
by dmbeaster

Russia did not invade Georgia, unless reinforcing its troops already in the breakaways constitutes an "invasion." Georgia started the shooting war -- not the Russians. Can you at least build your post around facts instead of made up baloney.

We are dealing with an area of the world in which boundaries are disputed. Georgia has not existed as a country independent of Russia for 200 years, and only just got established. The residents of the breakaway areas would vote to be out of Georgia. That they are in Georgia is a result of Czarist and later Stalinist boundary drawing and other policies for internal provinces.

The Georgians decided to deal with creeping annexation of the breakaway areas into autonomy or Russian states with an attack on the Russian troops already there. I assume they hoped to create a fait accompli with a lightning quick campaign, but obviously failed. The Russians counterattacked with a vengeance -- taking advantage of the opening of armed hostilities brought on by the Georgians.

That does not make Georgie the "victim," and frankly, building US policy around such simplistic notions for justifying war is nonsense.

But heck, now you can really start WW V or whatever number you are up to now. Vote McCain and get us into more wars as that is his solution to these problems.

Russian was meddling... (#109653)
by Bird Dog

...in an internal dispute within the internationally recognized boundaries of Georgia. Russia has not recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as seceded entities. There's no doubt there's a dispute, and the ethnic history is rife all kinds of violence and grievances, but Russian forces escalated their military incidents on Georgian soil.

Your saying that I'm "justifying war" is a smear, dm, and your "simple minded" dig is pretty uncivil and unwelcome. Had you bothered to read the thread you might've seen that I advocated no military response whatsoever and I said that Saakashvili reacted poorly to the Russians' bad behavior. But this since looks like another one of your drive-by dumps of intolerant illiberal ideological drivel, I'm guessing you didn't much (if any) time perusing the thread.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Rocketing civilians is MORE than "reacted poorly" (#109685)
by Bill White

Unless Gorbachev is proven wrong, Georgia and its supporters will lose this argument on the world stage.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Um (#109656)
by HankP

you do realize that Georgia had signed an agreement with Russia to provide peacekeeping personnel, and that they've been there since the mid 1990s? While Georgia wasn't happy with the agreement, they picked a pretty lousy way of trying to terminate it.

Also, your timeline is off. Georgia attacked inside South Ossetia on Thursday 8/7, as I pointed out elsewhere Russia proposed a cease fire at the UN Security council on 8/8 which the US vetoed, then Russia responded militarily. Trying to say that all the bad behavior in this war was Russia's fault is ignoring lots of inconvenient facts.

It's also pretty funny to see you suddenly appreciate the value of international law after the last several years in Iraq. Amazing how that stuff can come in handy.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Realize? (#109661)
by Bird Dog

Yes. Did you realize that this post was updated? As for my "sudden" appreciation of international law, please show me where I haven't. My position against torture is based on international law in the form of the Geneva Conventions, for example. But perhaps you didn't realize that.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Try "Iraq, Invasion of" nt (#109672)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Gray area (#109703)
by Bird Dog

To Kofi and others in his claque, yes, but there are arguments for and against.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Iraq, grey (#109706)
by stillnotking

South Ossetia, black-and-white.

Gotcha.

Also, I think you meant "clique", not "claque". A claque is a paid cadre of professional applauders.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

No, I meant claque (#109731)
by Bird Dog

The term also means a "group of fawning admirers" (cite), which was my intended use.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Interesting (#109734)
by stillnotking

Never heard that usage before. Thanks.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Whaaa? (#109657)
by Macallan

It doesn't say anything about "the US vetoed" you might want to re-read your own link there.

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

I think the relevant quote (#109659)
by Steve Peterson

I think the relevant quote in the article is this:

At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.

The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the US, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said.

I haven't seen the three-sentence draft statement, but renouncing the use of force does sound rather cease-fire-ish and the article does claim that the US was part of the group rejecting that.

Perhaps there were additional reasons for rejecting the draft statement.

--

Steven Palmer Peterson

Perhaps Condi Rice is an Asshat...and No Russian Scholar At All (#109664)
by Traveller

...I could see this coming myself and the eventual outcome.

Where was Condi in all of this....and events happen fast now!

Putin to his credit flew to the War Zone, or at least N. Ossetia....no one went to Georgia for us.

Bush was hugging, looking drunk, female volley Ball players in Bejing.

Condi, she was just lost at sea I suppose, way over her head.

Putin is a smart cookie...why don't you just say it? He drank our Milkshake.

Traveller

Milkshakes! (#109665)
by Steve Peterson

Traveller wrote:
Putin is a smart cookie...why don't you just say it? He drank our Milkshake.

Yah, Putin seemed to play this one awfully canny. By signing a ceasefire today he avoids a long-term mess, the quick trouncing gets an ego boost for Russia that'll probably make Putin beloved for decades, and, since Georgia IS a democracy, he achieves regime change by humiliating Saakashvili.

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Steven Palmer Peterson

Is "US blocked" better? nt (#109658)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Let's see (#109662)
by Macallan

The US, Britain "and several others" not rubberstamping a Russian authored statement just doesn't parse down to "the US" solely doing anything – blocking, vetoing, or whatever.

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Where did the "solely" come (#109663)
by Steve Peterson

Where did the "solely" come from?

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Steven Palmer Peterson

That's OK (#109668)
by HankP

Mac's much better at finding other people's errors.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Huh? (#109669)
by Macallan

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Just saying (#109674)
by HankP

that you've been extremely sharp eyed lately. My dream is that one day you'll stop focusing those sharp eyes exclusively on liberal's posts.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Yeah (#109678)
by Macallan

There just isn't enough ganging up on the rare conservative post here. I'll get right on that, but I'm kind of slow, so if I'm the 5th or 6th guy in I hope you'll understand.

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Just looks that way (#109686)
by Spartacvs

because there are no conservatives wiling to defend the rare conservative posts here. Wonder why that is?

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

It must the sheer brilliance of argumentation here (#109688)
by Macallan

I crack me up.

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Like I pointed out (#109708)
by Spartacvs

the enthusiasm gap is striking.

Obama just needs to work on the traditionalist over 60 vote and change is assured. However, as far as the Congressional GOP and Rove's permanent majority are concerned it's already game over.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Enthusiasm gap - (#109715)
by Pranky

Nice way of putting it.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/12/121117/668

I still think McCain can pull it off though. Obama is still a black male in the USA.

Yes, it's going to be a stiff test (#109723)
by Spartacvs

of American exceptionalism and the toughest fight will be over the votes of the over 60's traditionalist that were attracted to Hillary's campaign.

McCain is ideally positioned to capture those votes in Apalachia where it could make a significant difference in the election. Obama can't afford to disregard 'Old' America in the manner Bush did with 'Old Europe'.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

But I thought the truth was non-partisan? nt (#109680)
by HankP

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Well (#109682)
by Macallan

Since your "dream" has come true several times in the past, I don't know what you're complaining about.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

"the US vetoed" - nt (#109667)
by Macallan

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Was the "solely" written in (#109670)
by Steve Peterson

Was the "solely" written in an invisible font between the "US" and "vetoes" part?

--

Steven Palmer Peterson

Veto (#109673)
by Macallan

Is "solely" by definition.

1629, from L. veto, lit. "I forbid," first person singular present indicative of vetare "forbid," of unknown origin. Used by Roman tribunes who opposed measures of the Senate or magistrates.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Why are you using this in (#109676)
by Steve Peterson

Why are you using this in response to the post where he already admitted that "US blocked" is correct?

--

Steven Palmer Peterson

I agreed (#109675)
by HankP

that "blocked" was more accurate than "vetoed", but there's nothing requiring "blocked" to be exclusively singular.

Besides all this hyper-parsing, the fact remains that just like in Lebanon, we blocked cease fire proposals until our allies got in trouble, then scrambled to insist that all we really wanted was a cease fire. If you're going to be Machiavellian, then be Machiavellian. Acting Machiavellian but claiming you're idealistic just makes you look silly.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Saying the "US blocked" is... (#109702)
by Bird Dog

...another example of you telling half stories, Hank. Quote:

The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the US, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said.

Can you see why Mac is taking you to task on this? Saying the "US blocked" is misleading because "Britain and some other members" also rejected the Russians' proposed draft. You're blaming America first and only, by your own words, when other nations also had serious issues with what Russia put on the table.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

It's quite simple (#109720)
by HankP

a cease fire was proposed, was the US for it or against it? Obviously against it when they thought Georgia would wipe out its opponents and for it when Russia entered the picture.

You're trying the old "blame America" whine when the point is the flip flop in our supposed principles. Neither you nor Mac has addressed that part of the issue, and my guess is that you won't.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Trying? (#109730)
by Bird Dog

You were blaming America first, first with your factually false assertion, followed by your hackneyed and half-assed "correction". You automatically took Russia's proposal as legitimate, telling us that America "vetoed" their proposal, implying that the USA was blocking the path to peace, with barely any knowledge of the actual content of Russia's three-sentence statement. Why are you siding with Russia? And why are you taking their statements at face value? Just curious.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Yup, avoiding the flip flop nt (#109733)
by HankP

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Since you didn't explain... (#109741)
by Bird Dog

...the flip flop or the principles that underwent said flip-flop, there's nothing to avoid.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Also (#109724)
by Spartacvs

would the other nations have stuck to their guns and voted against, if the US had lobbied in favor of the Russian proposal or some compromise based on it?

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

It isn't hyper-parsing (#109677)
by Macallan

You're were trying to make a point, which wasn't supported by your own source.

I can't figure out why you find it necessary to make it "the US" and "we" when it was obvious from your own source that a good portion of the Security Council wasn't on board with the Russian statement.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Wait a minute (#109679)
by HankP

was a cease fire proposed, and did the US act to block it? The only other country mentioned by name was Britain, and the hangup was over the phrase "to renounce the use of force". This was after Georgia attacked in force, and before the Russians responded. I think it was a stupid move, you're free to argue otherwise.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Sorry (#109681)
by Macallan

But I think you're reading way too much into a throwaway line at the end of the article you cited. Without knowing exactly what the Russian's proposed or why the Security Council couldn't reach consensus, it's a little early to declare it "stupid".

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Russian was meddling..? But of Course, and They Did it Darn Good (#109654)
by Traveller

...the real problem with the liberal backing of the Ossetians in this matter is that there is the Economic Viability Aspect...

....the running of a State costs money, for all kinds of things, if only for police and security services. As States break apart, as seems to be sometimes the liberal wish, into smaller and smaller pieces, (People can always find a reason to divide and divide again on this distinction or that), the State can no longer economically support itself.

And so you get banditry and a lawless society....not good either.

Though I always remain vigilant against State Power, I am also mindful that a State needs to exist.

S. Ossetia is not large enough to be a State...so to Russia it would have to go...and it is to be remembered that Russia still holds large chunks of what once was eastern Finland from the bloody Winter War...so Russia does have a talent or bent for this sort of thingy.

Best Wishes, Traveller

Since I haven't seen it reported anywhere else (#109618)
by HankP

I should point out that the US helped to escalate this crisis:

At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.

The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the US, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said.

So we had a chance to call for a cease-fire when Georgia attacked South Ossetia, but we vetoed it. Looks pretty stupid in hindsight, doesn't it? Also looks like Russia actually tried to go the negotiations route, but we blocked it.

January 20th can't come soon enough.

EDIT: Isn't this starting to resemble Lebanon? Is that just me?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Thanks for the Link, Hank...I'm Posting it Around.... (#109636)
by Traveller

...that's pretty interesting and unless you're stationed in the UN, it is something most people would miss, not see, or not appreciate the gravity thereof.

Russia called for a cease fire on 8/8/08 and we blocked the resolution?

Heads should roll over this, careers ended...unless we really did give a blank check to Georgia.

But that would be insane.

Still, you never know with this administration.

Best wishes, Traveller

Georgia cease-fire UPDATE (#109621)
by Jay C

..or cease-fire, or something:

Supposed the Russians have "agreed" to some sort of halt to military operations via an EU proposal fronted by Nicolas Sarkozy .

No word yet on whether or not the Georgians might agree or not. (17:30 Tues 12 Aug)

UPDATE: Apparently, The Georgians have agreed.

19:00 Tues 12 Aug

The United States is Possibly Showing Considerable Restraint... (#109554)
by Traveller

...in reference to Georgia, and as a continuing lever against Moscow.

We are helpless and I have indicated as much...and yet, were we really wanting to be provocative we could flood Georgia with Stinger Missiles as well as Javelin anti-tank weapons...taken together, these might stop Russia in its tracks.

But then we are almost directly killing Russian Airmen and Soldiers...and nobody wants to go there.

Hence the war stops now...by tacit agreement that Russia stops its advance and the US continues to refrain from supplying serious weapons to the Georgians.

Best Wishes, Traveller (I had to edit a typo from above...and so I'll throw in a little more red meat...knowing the Black Sea from the Romanian side fairly extensively, I can see fast night boats ferrying weapons to Georgia in the dead of dark.

I might add that elsewhere, I may be being criticized for even thinking of this....kind of dangerous like John McCain...I don't know if I or John is dangerous, I just think that the above is what is going on).

Bird Dog, what would you find acceptable? (#109484)
by Bill White

Just curious . . .

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

The opposite of unacceptable (#109498)
by Bird Dog

Specifically, that Russia has no business removing a democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation. We don't hold many cards in this matter, so what we're left with is a series of sanctions to punish their bad behavior and enticements for improved behavior. There's really not a damn thing we can do about Georgia.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Well I agree... (#109652)
by M Aurelius

has no business removing a democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation

Too bad you tend to go all soft on the concept when we start discussing Iran or Chile or Australia, to name some of the better documented examples of our government doing exactly that.

I guess what I'm getting at is that our capacity for moral suasion isn't what it should be. Irony impairment is rather evident these days among conservative commentators. I give you Robert Kagan in yesterday's WaPo:

Russia's attack on sovereign Georgian territory marked the official return of history, indeed to an almost 19th-century style of great-power competition, complete with virulent nationalisms, battles for resources, struggles over spheres of influence and territory, and even -- though it shocks our 21st-century sensibilities -- the use of military power to obtain geopolitical objectives.

Shocks our sensibilities? Of course! We would never use military power to obtain our geopolitical objectives! Perish the barest hint of such a thought.

Our dear administration and its ideologues such as Mr. Kagan asked, begged for this kind of world. Well, now we have it. A job well done.

--

Of course not!

I Might Also Add That The Georgian Military Response... (#109506)
by Traveller

...both offensive and defensive, was sooooooo poorly thought out as to defy belief.

If you're going on an adventure, have it nailed down first...

Geeze, I thought we staff level advisors in Georgia?

The Georgian's Army's performance was just terrible.

Traveller

Georgian Military Response (#109531)
by Jay C

According to the McClatchy article linked to by Spartacvs (in #109470) - the assault on Tskhinvali came as a complete surprise to the American advisors who were working with the Georgian military: they were (apparently) shocked by the launch of hostilities on 8/8.

Personally, I find the credibility of these reports suspect, to say the least: even if working with the Georgians in (one presumes) merely training/overseeing roles, can our military really be so clueless as to miss the signs of an impending armored assault - even a relatively small-scale one - in as small a country as Georgia?

You left out the part (#109505)
by Spartacvs

about being on its immediate border and having provoked an unnecessary conflict despite being warned not to.

Doesn't that bear at least equal consideration as your "democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation"?

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

They've backed down from demands to remove (#109503)
by Bill White

Scheunemann's client. Russia is still saying he "should resign" but appear to not be forcing the issue. Actually, a cowed Georgian leader serves Moscow's purposes far better than a dead one, and occupation.

Do you agree we need to demand that Russia be booted from the G8?

What other sanctions do you propose?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

And What Sticks, Carrots, Enticements or Punishments Does Bird (#109492)
by Traveller

...have in his quiver that he thinks might be effective to bring about the acceptable state of affairs?

How would he recommend they be deployed or executed?

If the gun is empty, I suggest that this simply be admitted and used as a reminder that it is best not to go hunting Bear with an empty gun.

(Seriously, I give this advice quite a bit....it is almost a stock response of mine).

The Georgians really needed to blow that mountain tunnel before anything!

Traveller

Yep, belligerence mixed with incompetence is not (#109501)
by Bill White

a good recipe. Which is why John McCain needs to wash his hands of this entire affair as quickly as possible.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Belligerence mixed with incompetence (#109646)
by dmbeaster

Hard to wash your hands of such things when they are your defining personal traits.

Nub of the matter - did Georgia rocket Tskhinvali? (#109482)
by Bill White

Gorbachev writes today in the WaPo:

What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.

Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

If European leaders believe Gorby on this point and if Russia stops at those two provinces, there will be NO ONE willing to stand alongside John McCain as he takes on Russia.

= = =

Russian leaders also said Saakashvili should resign however it appears they are no longer demanding that resignation as a condition for ceasing military operations.

Actually, letting Saakashvili remain in office is probably better for Russia now that Georgia's military options are completely off the table. Putin placed the knife against Georgia's neck and now appears to be withdrawing the blade without regime change.

A cowed and fearful Georgia is far better for Moscow than an occupied Georgia.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

I would tread extremely carefully here, Charles (#109478)
by spartikus

Attempting to use this tragedy as a partisan cudgel is extremely ill-advised. There are many, many reports surfacing of atrocities committed by Georgian forces. These are unconfirmed, so far, and hopefully they will not pan out.

But unless one has absolute faith in the Georgian military I would be more circumspect.

Why not? (#109480)
by Macallan

Attempting to use this tragedy as a partisan cudgel is extremely ill-advised.

Reading this and other threads, it seems like nearly all the kids are doing it.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

On taking sides in the conflict itself ? (#109486)
by Spartacvs

not so much, just BD and K's drumbeat diary so far.

More the feckless and dangerous foreign policy initiatives of the Cheney Administration and the consequences, from this side of the fence.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

"Drumbeat?" (#109647)
by Kierkegaard

My diary is about reports and rumors of the war over the internet. It's a simple attempt to just figure out what's going on. I haven't taken any particular partisan view on it--which you would know if you actually had read any of it.

Fact is, your blanket hostility and constant insults are making you an unsavory character around here. Even people who share many of your views must be sick of the overkill of your comments.

ROFL (#109649)
by Spartacvs
Hee hee (#109508)
by Macallan

Eventually, if you keep this up, people are going to suspect you're a sock puppet I use occasionally just to make my point.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

BD's diary is more wedge than cudgel (#109517)
by Spartacvs