No, America Isn't Dumb. A Reply to Susan Jacoby.


Precis: In today’s Washington Post, Susan Jacoby argues Americans are in serious intellectual trouble. This is not true. America's kids are as fine a generation as we've ever raised. They may not read as many books as we did, but they're good kids, creating works of power and beauty, far beyond what we created in our own heyday.

Public ignorance, says Ms. Jacoby, can’t be discussed without sounding like an elitist. I remember John Kerry’s supposed elitism and the charges leveled against him, but he shared a membership in the ultra-elitist Skull and Bones with his folksy opponent George Bush. While it is true politicians have always aspired to appeal to common folk, this country has never elected a common man. The closest we ever came to a Common Man was Andrew Jackson, who would go on to evict the Cherokee and was easily America’s worst president. I recently spent some time in Osage County Oklahoma: native people prefer not to carry the 20 dollar bill in their pocket, for Black Heart’s face is upon it. Jimmy Carter, another supposed Common Man, proved a disaster in office, surrounding himself with cretins and bumpkins.

The grumblings of old people is as constant a refrain as the twittering of birds at dawn. Cicero’s crotchety whine of “O tempora, o mores” has passed into cliché. The old have always believed themselves smarter than the generation behind. The old have the advantage of experience and the disadvantage of inflexibility.

Jacoby refers to Lincoln’s eloquence at Gettysburg: the Shakespearean cadence of that marvelous speech. Lincoln’s entire education was centered on Shakespeare and the Bible. We must resist the urge to insert our modern selves into a November afternoon in 1863, to say the audience was any more intellectual or educated than ourselves. Lincoln was self-taught, with only 18 months of formal schooling. William Herndon taught him law. Nor was the Gettysburg Address a campaign speech, it was composed in several drafts, meant as a minor adjunct to a much longer speech after the president of Harvard University, Everett Hale. The world of 1863 featured professional oratory: in a world without radio or television, the written word was all there was.

Richard Hofstadter’s polemic "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life" is woefully dated. Intellectuals and cynics have always controlled the public debate, and William Randolph Hearst made fortunes on info-tainment long before the revisionist Hofstadter emerges to praise Andrew Jackson in his far more influential The American Political Tradition and the Men Who Made It (New York: A. A. Knopf, 1948). I have several significant beefs with that old fraud Richard Hofstadter: he was always a Marxist, even when he went over to the Ruling Class. He is the archetypal revisionist historian.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan was a gentleman and I will not disparage him overmuch. Dumbness hasn’t been defined down: it’s merely become more visible. The video culture began on a high note: early television was innovative, high-minded and deeply committed to education. But so was the printing press, in its day. Mass literacy and book ownership descended to the right of the common man. When radio was invented, Nicola Tesla built Wardenclyffe Tower to make world communications possible. Technology always starts on a high note: the early Internet was a hopeful thing. That it became a pornographic peep show is incidental: you are reading this essay on a website dedicated to the proposition that people can get smarter here.

Books and magazines are falling off, we are told. We are not told of the exponential rise of the Internet, of Google’s initiative to digitize the books of the world. News appears first on the Internet: Islamic terrorists put their videos up on the Net first. The technology never mattered anyway. Children in Niger and the Congo are on the Internet now. Small languages have a new lease on life: I just submitted the Osage (Niukonska) language Wazhazhe charset for Unicode inclusion.

If book reading is the yardstick for education, then yes, America’s in trouble. But is this of necessity a big deal? The book-reading public has always been a relatively small part of the body politic: the lurid serial form called Penny Dreadful has always sold well. Mark Twain and Charles Dickens wrote many books for newspaper consumption. What is the practical difference between LonelyGirl’s YouTube confessions and what preceded it in text form? I would argue the novel was a form invented for entertainment purposes only, and was mummified by the worshipful educational establishment.

Mankind changes little from age to age. The storyteller has always been part of human society, and the stories weren’t always pretty. Grimm’s Fairy Tales were gruesome little parables, every bit as horrific as any snuff video. Cinderella’s sisters mutilate themselves to fit into the glass slipper and most of the villains are sentenced to death in horrible modes of execution. Odysseus’ companions are eaten alive by Polyphemus, turned into pigs, every one of them dies before Wily Odysseus returns home, to kill the suitors. The Sangreal is awash in blood, gore and horror. It all sounds quite video-gamish to me. Jacoby calls my sort of argument Balderdash (what a silly old word that is, from Latin balducta, milk curds), but mankind has always sat around the fire, from infants to the elderly, their mouths agape in delight and horror, as the storyteller unrolls his magic carpet. Every modern theatrical and literary form has its ancient equivalent. There is nothing new under the sun.

Ms Jacoby may have been reading books in a tree house ( I favored my father’s study ) where modern children may obsess over their Facebook account. But how much effort did you put into decorating your three-ring binder, Ms. Jacoby? Which cliques did you join or wish to join? Which lunch table did you sit at? Children have always self-segregated, expressed themselves in the art and music they chose.

Ms. Jacoby says America isn’t interested in complicated policy choices. I would argue nobody’s interested in policy decisions until they’re directly affected. Franklin Roosevelt was a complex man who understood the power of radio, communicating directly with America via his Fireside Chats, which began long before Pearl Harbor. Raised in an elitist world, he was humanized by his polio. FDR’s genius was not his very considerable intellect, but his empathy. His wife’s role is not well understood to this day, but Eleanor Roosevelt poked holes in the bubble surrounding every politician in high office, exposing him to the suffering of the American people.

I seriously question any survey which says one in five American citizens believe the sun goes round the earth: this discounts the American sense of humor which writes Yes into the box labeled Sex. Americans do speak a second language: more Americans speak Spanish as a native language than English in the continental USA. It’s a perpetual source of amusement to me: ask an American about his heritage, he will never say “American”, he will respond with “oh, I’m Polish on my Dad’s side, Scots-Irish on my Mom’s side, and there’s some Cherokee in there somewhere.” The mythology of America is one of assimilation and collective identity.

And let’s put to rest this idea America’s become stupid in the mean time. Intelligence comes in many modes: we are a utilitarian people. Trade schools are doing land office business: if art history and literature departments are now in decline, they never did terribly well. They were always the refuge of those who couldn’t climb the mountains of the math and chemistry required for the degrees which ensured good jobs in the outside world.

Intellectualism and high culture have never been our forte. More women than men now graduate from four year colleges. As the costs of college have risen, fewer people feel can afford to attend. The teaching profession is poorly paid. If academia shouts out its disaffection with modern times from the dizzying heights of the ivory towers, it is an ancient tradition. It goes right back to the time of Socrates, accused of corrupting the youth of his day with the heresies of critical thinking. There never were any Good Old Days. What passes for Critical Thinking in our day has become a vile parody of itself, as anti-intellectual as anything coming out of the Know Nothings Jacoby rails against. I consider myself a well-read man, but my children grew up on the graphic novels of Neil Gaiman, the dark complexities of Nine Inch Nails, the beautiful and intricate worlds of Myst and the Airtight Garage by Moebius. They read widely and well, pushing bravely into the dark and violent corners of literature and art, as well as the strong beauties of a brave new world Ms. Jacoby neither knows nor understands. Intellectuals they have become, but not poseurs or dilettantes. I have shot them like arrows into the world, sharp and deadly and precise.

Unique in the generations of American children, this generation did not despise the music or culture of their parents. They are prematurely wise and cautious: they grew up in a world where AIDS and antibiotic-resistant venereal disease is a one-way trip to the morgue. They came of age when 9/11 cured America of its delusions of supremacy and invulnerability.

This is a generation with a heart. They enlist in our military with the certain knowledge of the dangers they face. Old I may be, and a bit wrinkly, but I will stand up for this new generation. They are not anti-intellectual, and I will slap down every assertion of their callous ignorance or their low level of discourse. Most especially, I will attack the likes of that precious old huckster Richard Hofstadter and his equally pedantic peer Allan Bloom, he of “The Closing of the American Mind” The artists, coders and scriptwriters behind the video games Ms Jacoby so despises know their Homer and Swift, and give life to visions of staggering power and beauty. America’s mind has never been more open than now. They're good kids, Ms. Jacoby. Maybe you should meet a few of them.
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Maintaining the dissidents to the mainstream received consensus (#80232)
by mmghosh

e.g Lindzen and Chomsky at MIT - is somethig that rarely happens in academia elsewhere in the world. I've chosen two examples - from the right wing and from the left wing not necessarily an exact match, but you get what I'm saying. Academic institutions, private or public, tend to favour one or the other, And even though I would say academia tends to left-lean throughout the world there seem to be enough examples in the US to kind of redress the balance somewhat.

I disagree (#80178)
by Gramsky

The Classics are not just the fragments that survived.
They followed their own periods of being in fashion
and out of fashion. They also have a content and delivery
that captures something timeless about the human condition.

What is surely lamented is that as younger generations
wade into the phenomenal output of modern media of all
types with intelligence and enthusiam but they have
lost basic skills in language, lack knowledge of
ideas and dont know their history or their classics
so they reinvent the wheel badly, recycle cliches
and dont get the references put in by the few who do.

How much of todays output of video games will be
around in a centuary ? dispite their references
to swift, twain or homer simpson and how few of the
target audience get the references.

Mhummm Classics.

I was, at the time, talking to a 5 and 7 year old (#80215)
by BlaiseP

We don't disagree in any respect. Why would Mozart remain so beloved, to this day? Exactly for the reasons you give: they also have a content and delivery that captures something timeless about the human condition. We can still hear a cheerful young man, grown from child prodigy to composer, scribbling away in a pool hall (he would bide his time between turns writing music, taking inspiration from the clicks of the billiard balls) chuckling away, scritch scritch scritch... wait till they hear THIS cadenza...

I dunno, my time raising kids is over. I relished the time I had with them and their friends. It's all anecdotal, I know, but I haven't seen what you describe. My kids read widely and well, my home is full of books and music. I'd teach them history, as it related to things in their lives: my kids were literate, could could read a map and find a topic in a child's encyclopedia before they ever went to school.

If indeed this generation is dumber, it's not because they're inferior timber. This new generation is more polite, and they've overcome racism. My house was full of kids of all description. I remember two kids using the N word to each other, and I gently asked them please to never use that word on my property. I said, yeah, I know you don't mean anything ugly by it, but I remember the struggle for civil rights, when the word was used against their parents. They apologized to me. I said, you don't really have to apologize, but you should remember how bad things were, and how much better they are now, not that they're perfect now.

You are lucky with your kids (#80217)
by Gramsky

mine know how to read, but they dont, mine know how
to look up a dictionary but they'd rather not and when
asked who Rob Roy was, his statue they pass each day
on the way to School, said sure we know... what team
did he play for again ?

...me i do despair...

Och aye, he played for the Jacobite side (#80221)
by BlaiseP

:)

I share your optimism (#80176)
by Micky Love

Mankind changes little from age to age. The storyteller has always been part of human society, and the stories weren’t always pretty. Grimm’s Fairy Tales were gruesome little parables, every bit as horrific as any snuff video.

Blaise is the patron saint of wool-gatherers and you are once again up to your old tricks. The fact is that the changes the world has undergone are big enough. These horrific stories you refer to - idle enjoyment for an evening around a campfire: not quite. They reflected the reality of a much more savage and barbaric age. And their telling amounted to the study of liberal arts in a pre-literate world. Grimm just wrote down stories that had already existed for centuries.

We're here today thanks in part to people who passed down their wisdom in the form of stories. Don't be so quick to disparage their efforts.

I share your optimism for the young ones. For me, it's the old ones who can't die off fast enough.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

On elitism (*Harold* Bloom this time): (#80163)
by tomsyl

I bought my son a used hardbound copy of his excellent collection, the unfortunately named Stories and Poems for Extremely Intelligent Children of All Ages. The prior owner had taken a broad-tipped Sharpie and blacked out "extremely intelligent" on the cover, spice and frontispiece. Otherwise I would have had to take it home inside a brown paper bag and made those excisions myself before letting a child see the book.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Great story, Tomsyl (#80166)
by BlaiseP

I am perpetually amused by the mutual admiration society clustered like unctuous mourners around the embalmed corpse of the Classics.

When my kids asked me why I played so much Mozart and Bach, I had to explain classical music to them. I said "don't take this stuff too seriously, it's just popular music which people still like centuries later. You like the Beatles, don't you? Same thing, they'll be listening to the Beatles a few centuries from now, singing Penny Lane like you kids do now, and that stuff was composed way before you were born."

Classical anything is just stuff which survived the test of time. I swear, that's one of the problems the blues will face in a few decades, it started turning inward and erecting monuments to its heroes. It's afflicting country music, too. When the scholars start in dissecting the rabbit of popular culture, the poor rabbit never hops again.

I remember when I first realized something similar around 13 (#80171)
by catchy

I was watching the following clip about one of Poland's early Prime ministers, Paderewski, who was a romantic classical pianist.

It hit me that the 'serious' music i was watching (at a summer piano camp w. severe Russian isntructors), with audience members in tuxedos, etc. was really just popular music that got trapped and encrusted by high society yrs. later.

in this case the music is transparently showy stuff -- liszt -- composed in large part to impress girls. It's 'serious' classical music by historical accident (scroll ahead to 2:40 to get a taste of how ridiculous this can get)


Adding on to What Catchy Said... (#80154)
by AndrewSshi

If art history and literature departments are now in decline, they never did terribly well. They were always the refuge of those who couldn’t climb the mountains of the math and chemistry required for the degrees which ensured good jobs in the outside world.

You wouldn't happen to be an engineer,* would you?

-----------
*Or some sort of IT guy.

Or those who don't just get out and climb mountains. n/t (#80182)
by mmghosh

Humanities grad students unite! (#80156)
by catchy

We've got no other options, our math skills suck too much for the private sector.

The market for video games is larger than Hollywood (#80160)
by BlaiseP

The gearheads and dreamers exist in a happy symbiosis in the land of video games. Hollywood's growing beyond the old crappy CGI, soon enough, the two genres will overlap completely.

My problem is this: academia, especially the humanities, has failed to make an adequate case for itself. Nobody studies Homer in Greek, or Ovid in Latin, we teaching this stuff in translation, the bored instructors seemingly incapable of conveying the greatness of these texts.

Humanities used to be rigorous. In some circles they still are. But unless you have a terminal degree, you can't even teach it: you have about the same odds of a ghetto kid getting into the NBA as becoming a tenured professor of Humanities these days. Even then, you'll live in genteel poverty. C'mon, now, this is serious stuff. There's never been a really large segment of the work force clamoring for someone with a Master's in Comparative Lit.

And Americans dont watch French films (#80179)
by Gramsky

in French, they remake them very badly with English (US)
speaking actors....

....there is a great loss in now reading a work in its
original language, be it Greek, Latin, or French, Arabic
etc....

The ideas may translate (although not completely) but the
poetry does not really.

no need to impress upon a phil grad student (#80167)
by catchy

the seriousness of living in poverty and the difficulty of becoming tenured. said damaclese sword hangs over anyone's head who pursues such a degree. It's also sad that I'm less likely to get a job outside of philosophy after seeking this degree. In fact, I supervised 2 failed philosophy PhDs in a lawfirm when I was 23 who were having serious difficulty making a career change. A grad degree is a real strike against you a lot of the time.

... re the general relevance of the academy to society at large, i can't speak to other disciplines since I don't know them particularly intimately.

espeically in the US however i'd say that philosophy's irrelevancy is a lot of the discipline's own fault in creating insular, self-referential modes of communication + topics of pursuit.

The contrast w. e.g. France is great where I see French philosophers quoted in the popular press all the time and most recently re Sarkozy's decision to have every French student study the life of someone captured by the Nazis during WWII. Nothing like that here ... tho in part that's b/c philosophy in France is less technical and rigorous such taht mroe people can participate.

Also we have such a high rate of post-secondary participation that it seems for many college is primarily a social weigh station between the babysitting of high school and entrance into the workforce. Lots of kids and their parents hve no interest in rigorous studies of the classics in its native tongue.

I don't know that such things would prepare people for the real world anyway. Our economy is more tilted towards the service sector than ever and marketing and sales is just as/more likely to get you $ than R&D in most corps.

Good people skills, confidence, a good work ethic, and organizational skills seem to me more important for succeeding in the private sector than knowledge of Homer or Ovid or the ability to write crack literary criticism.

... but writing skills would of course help. I know when I run across students who can't write I'm tempted to throw a lot effort at the prob., but then I usually end up doing far less. If they've slipped through the cracks thus far, why not a little further. I'm hardly compensated enough to spend inordinate amounts of time training students in basic grammar (something I find very tedious) vs. my field of expertise (something I don't mind putting extra time into for interested students).

Overall I think the phil depts. I'm familiar w. do a decent job of improving student's critical thinking skills and ability to clearly express and organize ideas. So there's some utility and preparation, but advanced study of the arts histry, philosophy etc. should basically be done so for it's own sake.

Minor nit: (#80186)
by Bernard Guerrero

Marketing involves a fair amount of rigorous thought: response-rate models, price elasticity, etc. And the "service economy" is a catch-all that encompasses a number of rather intellectual fields of pursuit: law, medicine, finance, etc.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

With the growing need for inference engines (#80170)
by BlaiseP

and artificial intelligence, the need for philosophers is surprisingly high. I use the Blaze / ILOG rules engine to handle problems which cannot be attacked any other way. Trying to explain an inference engine to someone who has never taken philosophy is damned near impossible, Catchy.

Though he's a bit old hat, the philosopher WVO Quine and his student Donald Davidson had a huge impact on me as a software engineer.

Philosophy is rigorous, as rigorous as mathematics. It is, at its core, logic reduced to its essentials.

I wrote a forward chaining algorithm in LISP (#80196)
by dionysus

back in the day.. what kinds of problems do you attack with rules engines? Which industry?

I won't speak for Blaise, but... (#80197)
by Bernard Guerrero

...most consumer lending has a rules engine at one or more points in the process, particularly during application & underwriting. Lots of XML flying around.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Heh, I have done several engagements (#80301)
by BlaiseP

doing exactly that. Citigroup uses FairIsaac's Blaze engine: Citi had, the last time I worked on it, about 45,000 rules. Basically, think of your FICO score: FairIsaac licenses their technology to other firms, who compose their own rules. The Gummint likes ILOG's JRules.

Almost all video games use a combination of rules and frame based AI to govern Agent behavior.

"other firms, who compose their own rules" (#80306)
by Bernard Guerrero
Oh, good point (#80200)
by dionysus

That would definitely be a good way to do that so you can arbitrarily add/subtract rules.

Gonna be looking for a new job this fall and might consider wall st, I'll have to keep that in mind. I don't know high end financial math and don't want to do application support on some ultra-high-availability legacy system that amounts to "just make sure this glorified calculator never has a second of downtime" so application work like that could be interesting.

That would be the way to go. (#80205)
by Bernard Guerrero

There are various other clusters of finance companies around the country, too. Granted, it probably doesn't look as great as it would have prior to the credit crunch, but the survivors are more likely to be serious outfits.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

philosophers of language and mathematics (#80172)
by catchy

and logicians sometimes go into AI or related fields. But not typically.

... Quine and Davidson aren't old hat where I go to school. Plenty of followers.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about Blaze/ILOG rules engines.

not that this is the main pt. of your post, but booo! (#80151)
by catchy

if art history and literature departments are now in decline, they never did terribly well. They were always the refuge of those who couldn’t climb the mountains of the math and chemistry required for the degrees which ensured good jobs in the outside world.

Besides the arts being a huge component of what makes life worth living, creative and aesthetic thought are part of what we mean by intelligence.

Well exactly. It's meant somewhat tongue in cheek. (#80158)
by BlaiseP

Academia, if it's to mean anything at all, is self-justifying. If we want a less-utilitarian society, we must ensure there's a place for the humanities in this culture. I go on to say the creative spirits who design the games like Myst do know their Homer and Swift, their sci-fi and Tolkien and C.S Lewis and all the other stuff which only the humanities can provide.

But the humanities must make a better case for itself in the greater world. Jacoby cannot blame it on the Dumbing Down of this culture. The humanities are vital, but they must make their own case for relevance.

I could explain to you why we're necessary (#80159)
by catchy

but that would require you to understand a whole bunch of technical jargon and theory that you'd have to go to humanities grad school to master.

Well, sure, go right ahead, I know all those arguments (#80161)
by BlaiseP

My Dad taught college English and Journalism. I've heard it all. Now tell me, in your own words, why college can't prepare people for the world any better than they do. Considering the cost of a college education, why the discrepancy between what passes for a Liberal Arts education and the needful skills required to get ahead in this society?

I see a lot of college kids, in the course of assembling software teams. I get English majors who can't write a specification. I get CompSci graduates who can't comment their code. I get Anthropology majors who can't interview a user. The ivory tower was once a forum of competing professors, who hung up shingles in Oxford and Paris and Milan, like Chaucer's Clerk: "gladly would he learn, and gladly teach". It should be made so again, and be forced into some semblance of relevance.

Art isn't meant to be utilitarian. (#80162)
by tomsyl

There's no dollar value or lifetime income expectancy enhancement that can be placed on an education in the literary, musical and artistic work that's our cultural legacy (much of it created by artists, composers and writers who themselves were paupers). A BA isn't a trade school degree; by looking for economic justification, you devalue the dissociation from the material world that's at the heart of great art.

I knew I was going to law school when I started college; since there were no course prerequisites (law requires only a mean streak, coupled with the willingness to argue endlessly and write sarcastically), I could take anything I wanted. The undergrad course catalog was the size of a phone book, and grad courses also were available. I spend days rummaging through it before each semester, and registered whatever courses sounded interesting: English Romantic poetry, Goethe (in high school-level German), comparative art history (my minor), geology, meteorology, etc. the closest I ever got to something useful was applied math (compsci was called that back then), but machine-language programming of DEC PDP-11s isn't much in demand anymore, so my poor grades there haven't held me back.

I learned how to learn in college. A smart undergrad proctor told me that I would look back on those four years as the best in my life in terms of complete freedom to study anything that interested me. Listening to him was one of the few really smart things I've done in my life.

Trying to measure the value of a liberal arts edumacation in terms of job market utility is frankly meaningless.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

If only colleges produced clear writing and logical thinking (#80164)
by BlaiseP

I'd be all for the idea of a Liberal Arts education. I don't see that happening. Liberal Arts has become smug, insular and effete, that's my contention. People should be taught how to think, not what to think. Many Conservatives wax quite hot on this particular aspect of academia.

When my own kids began college, I told them to first take a writing course, to learn how to write a college paper. I'm with you, a college education is more than merely utilitarian, it should be a process of exploration. My kids went to school on academic scholarships, because I got tired of the dismal levels of learning in high school and intervened. My last child was home schooled after his freshman year of high school, he turned out the most academically qualified of all.

While there's more to life than your job, an education should in fact teach job skills. This generation does not lack for good artists and playwrights, they are in high demand in some circles, notably the video games industry I have mentioned.

I frankly cannot understand why some of you choose to seize on one statement about academia and erect this molehill into some mountain of total condemnation of the Liberal Arts. I am the product of a Liberal Arts education myself, but I took the math and physics and biology courses, too. At the time, I had no idea what I'd become, I drifted into software because it provided an outlet for my creativity. If an education is to be a process of exploration, it is also obliged to be a process of preparation.

Conservative objections. (#80211)
by Punditus Maximus

I think you have it reversed -- the problem is that liberal arts educations often succeed in teaching people how to think; the issue is that our conservative brethren who are invested in this particular meme (i.e. few here) don't:

1) Like their kids exposed to people who think very differently from them, and

2) Don't like the conclusions their kids come to once they do start thinking.

Hence, Regent University.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

My "Engineer" Remark Upthread (#80195)
by AndrewSshi

Was based on the fact that I get especially frustrated by engineers who hold all other fields of knowledge in contempt and yet can't write a complete sentence to save their lives. There are few things that make academia feel more onerous than plowing through paper after paper written by engineers who can't seem to take the logical skills they've learned in other fields and apply them to putting words together.

And even though you made the remark as a casual aside, it reflects a deeper set of assumptions that are extremely problematic.

Such remarks reflect an implicit understanding of the way academia works that no one will come out and say openly. The biggest waste of a state taxpayer's money and a scientist's/mathematician's time are the "science/math for arts students" classes that you see in so many state universities. But the reason that those classes are there is because the university has an implicit understanding that the liberal arts are for those who can't handle math and real science. Until you start getting into the realm of proofs, pretty much anyone can handle math up through at least calculus. Likewise, someone with average or above average intelligence can do labwork. Instead of having their brains worked out, though, arts students are by the connivance of the science and humanities departments put into a giant auditorium where a scientist who drew the short straw this semester lectures from the book.

If you give an arts student a science class that has no labs, but instead consists of her being able to regurgitate the contents of her "biology for arts students" textbook, there's a very good chance that she's going to be one of those scholars in the humanities who writes that "science is a discourse" because that's her experience of science. Or take a kid whose done a degree in one of the arts and his pastor tells him that evolution is a lie foisted on him by science. His experience with biology will have been from his two semesters in which biology was something that came from a book, and so he'll just assume that scientists are reciting dogma, and if that's the case, why not go with a dogma that will lead to eternal life?

That sort of casual dismissal of the arts student that you made reflects an attitude that leads to scientists holding the Arts in general in contempt. It also means that fewer arts students are going to get the sort of rigorous education they need because there's an assumption that pervades everything that they're too dumb to handle it.

Math up to Calc. (#80271)
by Punditus Maximus

Sadly, no. Up to Algebra I, you can get folks down to one standard deviation or so below average, in my experience.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

If only it were so. (#80216)
by eeyn524

pretty much anyone can handle math up through at least calculus. Likewise, someone with average or above average intelligence can do labwork.

At non-top-tier institutions College Algebra is the one course that knocks out the most students. 50% fail rates are typical and I've seen it go as low as 10% finishing with an A,B, or C.

I completely agree with you that the "Math and Society" type courses aren't good for much. The real reason we have them is that state govts usually mandate a math course for all students.

Well, if I may fire back (#80198)
by dionysus

I was always disturbed when I parsed a 4-line run-on sentence full of GRE words from a friend's sociology book to find it boiled down to "People don't like things that make them feel bad"

There are a LOT of engineers who can't write to save their lives -- but the great computer science textbooks are written with a sense of humor and ease relative to the subject matter that blows away the more arcane and professor-dominated fields. Tanenbaum's operating system book, the MIT Scheme "Structure and Interpretation of Programming Languages".. the fact that 2 arbitrary and incompatible methods of bit-ordering for hard drive sectors are referred to as "Big Endian" and "Little Endian" after Gulliver's Travels instead of some self-important nonsense. Every computer science concept is named as simply as possible, "Linked List", "Hash Map", "Input Stream". Within their own field, engineers can be surprisingly down to earth and don't adorn themselves with a lot of "let's make this look really inaccessible" trappings. Of course, in industry you get all the trappings from an IBM or Oracle marketing department looking to impress people who don't know what they're talking about, so I'm sure there are plenty of counter-examples that involve the words "Enterprise", "Scalable", etc.

I was Mainly Thinking of Teaching Undergrads (#80206)
by AndrewSshi

I tend to agree that when it comes to the professional stuff, the modern language department* is, in general, methodologically broken. But at the level of undergraduate instruction, most professors in the humanities really do strive mightily to teach their undergrads things like how to write clearly and concisely. The unintelligible gobbledeygook is for hiring/tenure committees.

--------------
*And really any academic department based on thirty-year-old French anthropology and half-digested continental philosophy.

We seized on it because it's always fun to debate (#80173)
by tomsyl

the utilitarian from the standpoint of the smug academician who lives the tenured life of a fat-cat, with absolutely no responsibility, and a sneering disdain for those of us who have to actually create things and sell them to make livings for both ourselves and them. %^> (This of course is stereotype that has nothing at all to do with any academician posting here.) And we regularly get the spectacle of some Professor Emeritus of Abyssinian Potsherds from Podunk U. blathering on about the Iraq War as if he knows something we don't.

But you touched on something much more interesting to me: software as art. An art demanding unforgiving precision, of creation within narrowly defined constraints, of creating elegant, paradigm-shifting code, of doing the most with the least. Competently done by many yeoman, but excellently done by the few who earn respect among a very small group of other artisans who know enough to appreciate their work. And like other forms of art, many of the great coders are working in their spare time for little or no pay, giving their work to the open source community.

I knew enough from college to have great respect for good programmers, the kind of respect you only get from watching someone do well what you cannot even do poorly. But I didn't really appreciate the art that infuses the cold logic of code crafting until I got into the open software movement, and read books like Eric Raymond's excellent The Cathedral and the Bazaar and Pete Goodliffe's Code Craft - The Practice of Writing Excellent Code.

That's not to say that art isn't being created through computers: graphic arts-oriented language like Processing, with enormous creative output appearing in interactive works that represent almost a complete break with traditional representative and abstract painting, drawing and photography. They're making art like this mixed-media piece, or this sculpture, weirdly ubclassifable works like this walking drum and even interactive ads like this one for HP Taking elements of the past and, using new technology and an object-oriented programming language aimed at non-computer types and making some new and wonderful works.

*****

I second everything you've said about the qualities of the generation we're raising to inherit from us. They don't necessarily think like we do, but my parents didn't and don't really understand either my work or my play.

We see a lot of soldiers here in Hawaii, and it infuriates me when cretinous lefties like Charlie Rangel, Gerrold Nadler or Maxine Waters diss them and their brethren by claiming they were compelled by poverty, ignorance or racial prejudice to sign up for what they consider a demeaning, lowest common denominator career. How many soldiers do these pols actually talk to and interact with? And I particularly laugh at the cretins on the Berkeley City Council. If they need military help someday to cope with a disaster, I hope they don't get it.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

I seized on it (#80168)
by catchy

but titled me comment: "not that this is the main pt. of your post"

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