Trotsky, Part the Third: Permanent Revolution




* Hausa farmer, Niger
Reuters/Finbarr O'Reilly


Let’s take a step back, put more of the landscape in the frame. At the risk of oversimplifying, I’ll attempt to lay out Trotsky’s point. Nations, then and now exist at various states of development. More precisely, they exist in various states of backwardness and they’re all trying to play catch-up. Backward countries need capital, and they’ll do almost anything to get it. It’s a sad fact of life: backward countries are badly led. A good measure of how badly a country is led is the percentage of subsistence farmers. Workers aren’t a whole lot better off: they leave the farm, only to spend their days doing manual labor in the factory, getting a fraction of the profits, but hey, it is a step up and don’t blame the capitalist, that’s the way these things work. These backward countries can’t wait around for bad leaders to die off and better ones replace them.

Countries with fewer farmers have the luxury of plenty of capital. An enterprising worker can run down to the bank with a good idea, get a loan and buy the means of production. Once he’s got a nice little company running, he can expand his business. If it’s a really great idea, a venture capitalist will fund him into the big leagues. The subsistence farmer has no such options.

Forget all this crap about Wicked Capitalism, said Trotsky and Lenin. Capital is the lifeblood of any society. The wickedness arises mostly in poor backward countries, where feudalism was never abolished. All things being equal, there’s no excuse for poverty: mechanize a society, educate all the children, get capital down to ground level and people will lift themselves out of poverty. Okay, so we’re a rural society in Russia, we don’t have an infrastructure of roads. We’ll build railways and leapfrog with technology in response. And forget the workers for now, workers can unionize or they can break out to specialized labor. They said let’s deal with the subsistence farmers first: they’re the manifestation of the backwardness. All those effete Narodniks, hopping and skipping around like a bunch of idealistic hippies in their happy communes, not one of them ever had to plow a field or go hungry in the winter. They’re useless. We have two enemies, said Trotsky: amoral external capitalist forces intent on exploitation and immoral internal feudal forces intent on getting rich while the country is looted by the external forces.

Now just wait a minute, said the Menscheviks. You are not going to shortcut the development process by imposing a new class of overlords. It took centuries for the industrialized societies to develop. If the Revolution doesn’t have a broad base of support, if it doesn’t have dissenting voices and a pluralist system, so much for all that fine talk about all things being equal and people lifting themselves out of poverty. This business about a Central Committee to direct all the development, isn’t that just a new sort of feudalism? You’re not industrialists, you’ve yet to make a dime on your own or run a business or make a payroll, who are you to talk about macroeconomics? You’re drinking Alexrod’s kefir and he pays your rent and you’re printing your little pamphlets on the press he bought. If this revolution doesn’t happen from the ground up, if you just smash what’s there without a system to replace it, you’ll either get anarchy or tyranny, more likely the first then the second, and then you’ll be stuck where we are now with the Tsar and his cronies.



* Okhrana fugitive photographs
Leon Trotsky, two upper right
Okhrana Records, Hoover Institution


Well sure, said the Bolsheviks. That’s all true. But what happened when we tried it your way? All that hooey about peaceful coexistence and organizing the workers and gradual progress: have you forgotten the Tsar’s secret police and the torture and the prisons and the endless steppes of Siberia? Here we are in London, chased out of our own country. Unless and until we overthrow feudalism, the vested interests will use the apparatus of the State to crush you like bugs. We’re not blaming the capitalists, they take logs and turn them into furniture and sell that furniture to the comfy bourgeois in Paris and Milan. That’s all fine and good in its way. Our problem isn’t the capitalists, it’s the feudalists. You’ve been sitting around for a decade and more, rattling on about the Tsar’s evils. You’ve done nothing but piss ink and endlessly deconstruct Marx and construct castles in the clouds. The Tsar and the nobility are already on thin ice. The Revolution will happen, with or without you, and very likely without us as well. If you don’t like our Central Committee, perhaps you prefer outright anarchy or the predations of another empire like Poland or Austria-Hungary or the Ottomans or all of ‘em at once. Someone’s got to lead this thing and it might as well be us. Take sides now, because you’re starting to sound like all those condescending Christian idiots like Tolstoy, wringing your hands at the suffering of the muzhik (peasant), but doing nothing.

Trotsky pipes up at this point in the yelling match. Look, he said, you’re both right. Plekhanov is right about No Shortcuts. Lenin is right about the Revolution. We face a radically different problem, one for which Marx offers no solution, the problem of a backward, agrarian society. We’re in brand new territory here, I’ve got this idea. I’ll call it the Permanent Revolution. Every society is really just a wrapper for its economy. Every advance in human society upsets the apple cart, destroying old economies and creating new ones. Industrialization made a hash of what preceded it. Masses of people moved off the farms to tend the machines in the factories, and a tractor does in a day what a hundred men couldn’t do in a week.

But, says Trotsky, though Plekhanov has a point about No Shortcuts, there’s no reason why we have to go through the pattern of the West, where first the barons and later the city people formed up an alternate structure to undo the King’s feudal powers. The Kings never adapted to capitalism and lost relevance. The bankers and industrialists and the newly-emerged middle class replaced the feudal powers. Though we’re a backward country, we have several distinct advantages. For one, we don’t have to repeat their mistakes. We don’t have to tolerate this intermediate step of bourgeois capitalism: we take democracy right down to ground level and let the people sort it out from the start of the revolution. Once we put the means of production in the hands of the subsistence farmer, educate his children, eliminate illiteracy and blow out the feudalists, we can put Russia on the road to progress.

Let’s not entertain any illusions, Trotsky continues, the ruling class never surrenders peacefully. We’re talking about a complete change in the social order. Lenin is right, first we get rid of the feudalists and it will mean open warfare. This isn’t a mere changing of the guard. This Permanent Revolution means we create a new economic reality and therefore a new political reality. If the farmer is on our side, we have an overwhelming majority. Trotsky said:

“As distinguished from the processes of nature, a revolution is made by human beings and through human beings. But in the course of revolution, too, men act under the influence of social conditions which are not freely chosen by them but are handed down from the past and imperatively point out the road which they must follow. For this reason, and only for this reason, a revolution follows certain laws.

But human consciousness does not merely passively reflect its objective conditions. It is accustomed to react actively to them. At certain times this reaction assumes a tense, passionate, mass character. The barriers of right and might are overthrown. The active intervention of the masses in historical events is in fact the most indispensable element of a revolution.

But even the stormiest activity can remain in the stage of demonstration or rebellion, without rising to the height of a revolution. The uprising of the masses must lead to the overthrow of the domination of one class and to the establishment of the domination of another. Only then have we achieved a revolution. A mass uprising is no isolated undertaking, which can be conjured up any time one pleases. It represents an objectively-conditioned element in the development of a revolution, just as a revolution represents an objectively-conditioned process in the development of society. But if the necessary conditions for the uprising exist, one must not simply wait passively, with open mouth; as Shakespeare says: “There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.”

In order to sweep away the outlived social order, the progressive class must understand that its hour has struck and set before itself the task of conquering power. Here opens the field of conscious revolutionary action, where foresight and calculation combine with will and courage. In other words: here opens the field of action of the Party.”
….
The liberal bourgeoisie can seize power and has seized it more than once as the result of struggles in which it took no part; it possesses organs of seizure which are admirably adapted to the purpose. But the working masses are in a different position; they have long been accustomed to give, and not to take. They work, are patient as long as they can be, hope, lose patience, rise up and struggle, die, bring victory to others, are betrayed, fall into despondency, bow their necks, and work again. Such is the history of the masses of the people under all regimes. To be able to take the power firmly and surely into its hands the proletariat needs a Party, which far surpasses other parties in the clarity of its thought and in its revolutionary determination.

The Bolshevik Party, which has been described more than once and with complete justification as the most revolutionary Party in the history of mankind was the living condensation of the modern history of Russia, of all that was dynamic in it. The overthrow of Tsarism had long been recognized as the necessary condition for the development of economy and culture. But for the solution of this task, the forces were insufficient. The bourgeoisie feared the Revolution. The intelligentsia tried to bring the peasant to his feet. The muzhik, incapable of generalizing his own miseries and his aims, left this appeal unanswered. The intelligentsia armed itself with dynamite. A whole generation was wasted in this struggle.

On March 1st 1887, Alexander Ulianov carried out the last of the great terrorist plots. The attempted assassination of Alexander III failed. Ulianov and the other participants were executed. The attempt to make chemical preparation take the place of a revolutionary class, came to grief. Even the most heroic intelligentsia is nothing without the masses. Ulianov’s younger brother Vladimir, the future Lenin, the greatest figure of Russian history, grew up under the immediate impression of these facts and conclusion. Even in his early youth he placed himself on the foundations of Marxism and turned his face toward the proletariat. Without losing sight of the village for a moment he sought the way of the peasantry through the workers. Inheriting from his revolutionary predecessors their capacity for self sacrifice, and their willingness to go to the limit, Lenin, at an early age, became the teacher of the new generation of the intelligentsia and of the advanced workers. In strikes and street fights, in prisons and in exile, the workers received the necessary tempering. They needed the searchlight of Marxism to light up their historical road in the darkness of absolutism.

Conclusion:



* Sayyid Qutb


This series has taken on a life of its own, and yet more is coming. In this exposition of Trotsky, I am repeatedly struck by the parallels between the early years of the 20th Century and the opening years of this century. The American revolutionaries were never tempted to create a monolithic power structure: our separate States would never surrender their autonomy to a centralized federal system. The French Revolution had no such forces in play: in France, power concentrated in the hands of the few, creating a situation Napoleon could exploit. America’s revolution succeeded only because it was a sidebar to a larger War of Empires as the British fought the French for control of the Caribbean. America was unbelievably lucky, we would go on to quarrel with both the French and British but were not overthrown.

The dictators and revolutionaries lurk there still. Though the developing world cycles through advances in technology in our own form of the Permanent Revolution, the Third World is trapped in poverty. Billions of persons still live in abysmal poverty. In repressive regimes all over the world, secret police hound the intelligentsia into exile. In a nondescript apartment building in Hamburg, Mohammed Atta patiently planned his assault on the United States. It may seem we have won some respite from terror, as Trotsky said “The intelligentsia armed itself with dynamite. A whole generation was wasted in this struggle.”

I prophesy an Islamic Trotsky will emerge, is already emerging. He is writing now, perhaps exiled from Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Algeria or Iran. He is blogging, and he is being watched by our intelligence agencies. And with him is an Islamic Lenin with less patience than his Trotsky. That Islamic Lenin will pave the way for the rise of a psychopathic Islamic Stalin: all of them will have read the works of Leon Trotsky in translation.

The Islamic world is primed for the appearance of this man. The Islamic countries, like Russia, have missed the boat of Industrialism, they sink ever further into chaos and competing ideologies. Their universities have become hotbeds of radicalism, and everywhere the voice of reason is drowned. The reforms of Nasser and the Ba’athists were all from above, and they have failed. As with Russia after the liberation of the peasants, Iraq has become a factionalist hell.

The era of Osama bin Ladin is passing away. Osama bin Ladin was guided by Sayyid Qutb as silly old spiritual Plekanhov had been guided by Marx’s irrelevant vision. Plekhanov failed because he never understood the peasant. Lenin succeeded because he had Trotsky to preach his sermons. We are nearing a crucial fork in the road as an industrialized world: our versions of the Tsar’s police can send all the revolutionaries they catch to our gulags in Guantanamo, but it will do no good. Never send a thinker to Siberia and let him live.

Sayyid Qutb once said: “We pay little heed to our native spiritual resources and our own intellectual heritage; instead, we think first of importing foreign principles and methods, or borrowing customs and laws from across the deserts and beyond the seas... we turn our eyes to Europe, America, or Russia, and we expect to import from there solutions to our problems.”

We all know how the story ended. Trotsky failed. Or did he? Trotsky gives us something unique, a vision of the Permanent Revolution: a revolution mankind has endured and must endure in all times and all places. The nation-state is failing: as with capitalism, democracy must be both a universal and a local thing. Capitalism by itself is not the solution, nor is democracy alone. At some point, the masses must be given the means of production, or they will revolt. Billions of the world’s poorest people are denied justice and they suffer in silence. We who sit in comfortable circumstances see their suffering and offer them platitudes. I offer you the words of Paul Simon:



* Sudanese refugees


It was a slow day
And the sun was beating
On the soldiers by the side of the road
There was a bright light
A shattering of shop windows
The bomb in the baby carriage
Was wired to the radio

It was a dry wind
And it swept across the desert
And it curled into the circle of birth
And the dead sand
Falling on the children
The mothers and the fathers
And the automatic earth

And I believe
These are the days of lasers in the jungle
Lasers in the jungle somewhere
Staccato signals of constant information
A loose affiliation of millionaires
And billionaires and baby
These are the days of miracle and wonder
This is the long distance call
The way the camera follows us in slo-mo
The way we look to us all
The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry baby, don't cry

--

--

--

--

--

--

--

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Permanent Revolution != manufacturing garbage. (#110737)
by Jordan

I think that libertarianism, Econ 101 courses, and Cold War propaganda have combined to instill some extremely loopy misunderstandings of capitalism and how it functions. I'd wage a crusade to correct these errors and prejudices if I didn't have better things to do, like being a productive corporate citizen.

Consumer capitalism produces garbage by the megaton. The United States today produces more trash, waste, and pollution per capita than any society anywhere in the world ever has. Consider the vast mounds of garbage at Fresh Kills in Staten Island -- towering pyramids and ziggurats that make the Valley of Kings look like a beach full of September sand castles. And that's just one landfill in one major city. Remember the garbage barges drifting from port to port, looking for a home? We can't just eat fast food, we also have to buy the cartons for burger and fries, soda cup and straws, ketchup packets, salt packets and a bag to carry it all to our SUV. Naples in Italy no longer has room for its garbage, and it's piling up in the streets. NASA tracks tens of thousands of pieces of space junk we've left in orbit. Out with the old, in with the new. Our entire society is built on making things, using things, and throwing things away, and the throwing away part is what makes all the rest of it possible and necessary. Our largest and most enduring product is garbage.

What is garbage? Garbage is a product that was formerly useful, but now its use value has been used up. It has become useless. In a hunter-gatherer culture, nothing is useless. In a settled agrarian culture, broken tools are mended, chaff and leavings are plowed back into the soil. In our culture, almost everything we build or make is already on its way to being obsolete. Useless by design. Consider entertainment. TV shows appear, get popular, fade and get cancelled only to be replaced by nearly identical shows whose storylines and characters are genetic clones of the old. There are hundreds of police procedurals, hospital and legal dramas, sit coms and reality shows, all the freakin same. In pop music, Britney Spears is Christina Aquilera is Mariah Carey is Rihanna is Madonna is Diana Ross, etc. etc. etc.

We make things whose useful life could be measured in decades, only to throw them out after 6 months, a year, a week.

Consider technology. My cell phone today isn't usefully different from the one I bought 10 years ago. Why'd I need a new one? Now that HD is out, my entire DVD collection is out of date. Why do people need to have the White Album on LP, 8-track, cassette, CD, and iTunes download? We burn through new, supposedly improved consumer technologies all the time, for no reason other than that our culture wants us to be crack fiends when it comes to novelty. Use it once, throw it away.

Healthcare. 40% of healthcare research is devoted to coming up with quack remedies, happy pills, baldness cures, erectile tissue engorgers, all of which crowd each other out of the market. Why are there 400 varieties of toothpaste but only 4 brands? Tartar control. Tartar control whitening. Advanced tartar control whitening gel.

The point of my rant is that much of what we think of as "competition" and "innovation" is actually just a novelty impulse combined with an economic need to rejuvenate demand by discarding what satisfied demand last week/month/year. This isn't progress or revolution, it's just going in circles while covering the planet in filth and junk.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Capitalist nations have killed millions (#110881)
by mmghosh

just as many as Communist nations have. I think we maybe fail to realise the tremndous effect of the First World War - where many millions of people were slaughtered in a war essentially between capitalist nations. As Bertrand Russell put it, in July 1914 an Englishman would have been hanged for murdering a German, whereas after September 1914, and post whipping up of war hysteria, he would be lauded for it. And while it is true that going to war on your people as Stalin did with the kulaks and in the Ukraine is different from going to war with your neighbours, at the end of the day, to the individuals affected, it hardly makes a significant difference.

At that point in time, the politics and economies of the warring nations were pretty much more right-wing than they are today, even in Germany where Bismarck had started the Welfare State concept. The First World War pretty much showed us what the essentially capitalist free market world would come to without the web of international agreements post-1945 that defines the world today.

It is also forgotten the situation in which the Bolshviks came to power, and the reaction to Bolshevism by the Whites. In their first flush of idealism, the Bolsheviks abolished the death penalty in Oct 1917, for example, and reintroduced it for pragmatic reasons to deal with White terror.

Just as many? (#111056)
by Bird Dog

Not even close.

● 20 million in the Soviet Union
● 65 million in the People's Republic of China
● 1 million in Vietnam
● 2 million in North Korea
● 2 million in Cambodia
● 1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
● 150,000 in Latin America
● 1.7 million in Africa
● 1.5 million in Afghanistan
● 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power."

There is no evidence that capitalist nations killed anywhere near 94 million.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Take another look, BD. (#111123)
by Jordan

● 17-20 million Africa/Asia/New World (16th-19th c.)
● 12-20 million Congo Free State (1885-1905)
● 20-50 million Native Americas (16th-19th centuries)
● French Revolution 263,000
● 55,000 Herero/Namaqua Genocide
● 1.25 million The Great Famine
● 1.8 million Armenian, Assyrian, Pontic Greek genocides
● 8.5 million Mexico post-col. to 1899

Just a random selection of data points from the four centuries of capitalism proper.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Yeah. . . (#111208)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .smallpox is the nastiest capitalist of all.

Edit: "French Revolution"? OK, zero credibility for that list.

--

Congo Free State. Atlantic Slave Trade. (#111293)
by Jordan

Note to self: obtain good cherry-picker, the season's upon us.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Having Caught The List Twice. . . (#111297)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .playing games with reality, why should I trust the numbers on the rest of it? Not to mention that the entry whose game-playing you're dismissing accounts for about half the deaths in the tally.

--

Two different lists (#111321)
by HankP

the one linked earlier, in French, addresses most of your complaints - 20th century only, no smallpox, etc. It just seems like you want to be able to use the bad list against communists but are unwilling (or unable) to try to apply the same criteria to capitalism.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

The 20th Century List Includes. . . (#111325)
by M Scott Eiland

. .. more than fifty million deaths due to war for capitalists, and none for communists. Different list, same dishonesty.

--

Huh? (#111366)
by HankP

the anti-communism list had no deaths listed as a result of capitalism, either. Why are you criticizing a list for not counting what they never set out to count in the first place?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

The List That The Communist Apologists. . . (#111379)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .were responding to was almost exclusively composed of citizens of communist countries killed by their countries' policies--dragging war deaths into it was intentional dishonesty on their part, and ignored the fact that the Soviet Union killed more than a few people in World War II themselves.

--

Ha (#111383)
by HankP

"communist apologists". OK.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

The Book Authors, Of Course (#111384)
by M Scott Eiland

Not addressing anyone here, unless they'd consider it flattery--in which case they're free to voluntarily don the mantle.

--

You don't get it (#111386)
by HankP

critiquing capitalism doesn't make one a communist or communist apologist except in a very paranoid and Manichean world view.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

If They Wanted To Critique Capitalism Without. . . (#111388)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .engaging in apologetics for communism, an approach other than aping the title of an anti-communist book--then producing an intellectually dishonest list designed to generate a number similar to the one in The Black Book of Communism--would have been advisable.

--

Do you "trust the numbers" (#111314)
by Jordan

of the Atlantic slave trade? Of Leopold II's Congo?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I'm Willing To Discuss Them (#111323)
by M Scott Eiland

But not in the context of a list that drags in millions of deaths by epidemic to inflate the numbers--or tries to call the French Revolution "capitalist."

--

When smallpox was ravaging the Aztec Empire, (#111340)
by Jordan

the Spaniards under Cortes were a) rebuilding the region's shattered agriculture & infrastructure, b) setting up ring containment to isolate the plague, c) concentrating the natives in filthy urban centers so they could more easily complete surveying & parceling out of the land.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Translation (#111346)
by M Scott Eiland

"Smallpox is a capitalist tool." Got it.

--

Translation (#111353)
by Jordan

Thanks to the Black Plague among others, Europeans knew full well concentrating people is the best way to make epidemics run wildfire.

That and the little matter that Cortes was waging a war of conquest, dismantling the civil infrastructure of an empire, and doling out the pieces to his colleagues.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Victorian Holocausts (#111217)
by Micky Love

You should check out Mike Davis' Late Victorian Holocausts if you're at all serious about this question.

http://www.amazon.com/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/185984...

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Did you want to provide a reasonable capitalist count (#111070)
by catchy

Or is this yet another comparison w. stats only pertaining to one party?

Ha (#111063)
by HankP

since you're quoting from The Black Book of Communism, why not quote the figures from The Black Book of Capitalism, which puts the excess deaths due to capitalism at 100 million. Wouldn't want to be one-sided here, would we?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

"Factual accuracy disputed" (#111162)
by Bird Dog

You're right. I wouldn't want to be one-sided. Would you? The book claimed that 70 million American Indians died because of our capitalist system, which is ridiculous. A whopping percentage died from disease. The whole purpose of the publication is to chump people who are looking for some sort of equivalence.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

BTW (#111189)
by HankP

I didn't even start on the deaths due to poverty and famine in the capitalist world, which I'm assuming you would accept since the system is responsible for the outcome, right?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Cite? (#111180)
by catchy

The book claimed that 70 million American Indians died because of our capitalist system

The book's never been translated into English, but i looked at a French site and I don't believe it said anything of the sort.

it tallied capitalist deaths for WWI + II at around 58 mil, then got another 40 mil out of colonial wars, anti-Communism wars, and some famine.

Looked pretty similar to the methodology your book used.

Again, it's obvious you've just asserted a comparison and haven't done any real work comparing.

If You Want To Count WWII. . . (#111213)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .that communist figure is going to get another boost--the Soviet Union was not an innocent bystander in the hostilities. The 100,000,000 figure from the Black Book is predominantly composed of large numbers of the communist counties' own citizens, slain by gulag or gunshot or famines created for ideological reasons. The efforts of irritated leftists to play catchup are distorted by delusion (smallpox as marauding capitalist--the world wars as "capitalist").

--

sorry. I don't what the starting pt. is here (#111214)
by catchy

You're claiming the Black book of Com.'s #s are accurate + meaningful?

Are You Claiming They're Not? -nt- (#111216)
by M Scott Eiland

--

No se' (#111223)
by catchy

I haven't really looked into how they were compiled.

I was just pt.ing out that BD didn't bother to even plop out stats for the capitalist side yet made a comparison nonetheless.

You sound like you've had this convo. before. I haven't. Feel free to offer something systematic + supported. Then we'd have a starting pt.

Here's A Starting Point (#111233)
by M Scott Eiland

If you look at the list compiled and attributed to the capitalists and compare it to the similar one attributed to communists, you will notice:

--the one for communists includes more or less only deaths since 1917. This is to be expected for obvious reasons.

--the one for capitalists usually stretches back to the end of the fifteenth century or the beginning of the sixteenth century. Two obvious problems with this:

--comparing a five century period to a seventy-five year period is, shall we say, a touch apples to oranges, and;

--looking at the list, deaths are clearly being attributed to capitalists that were either caused by non-capitalists (though attributable to human beings) and which were being caused by massive epidemics resulting from first contact with the Native Americans, which would have occurred regardless of the political system of the explorers from Europe.

Given these two factors--which certainly should have been obvious to the "researchers" who compiled the list, I see no reason to take their work seriously or to consider them anything but intentionally dishonest propagandists.

As for the list for Communism, the exact numbers will never be known--but it is unmistakably true that many tens of millions died by being murdered intentionally by communists, kept in vile gulags until they died, or were starved due to ideologically directed agriculture practices which disrupted functioning systems that were not in a state of famine, either to intentionally murder dissidents or in an incompetent effort to create a new system consistent with communist ideology--and this all happened in about seventy-five years. The fact that those irritated by those who point out this fact feel the need to go back five centuries--taking advantage of the increasing lack of solid information available from those years--and to use inane definitions for "capitalist" to try to play catchup tells us all we need to know about their motives and integrity.

--

That's a starting pt. Thanks. (#111318)
by catchy

and if I have time to look at the Communist compilation I will.

I think you're having past convos simulataneously w. present ones tho.

The list didn't go back to the 15th century and only had 100,000 Native American deaths.

Those were your 2 central complaints and they don't seem to apply.

War Deaths (#111327)
by M Scott Eiland

Somehow, over fifty million of those got attributed to capitalists, and next to none for communists. How convenient.

--

OK (#111357)
by catchy

Well, as you said no deaths are attributed to communists before 1917, so most WWI deaths won't count.

I think manish made a reasonable case upthread for counting WWI deaths under the 'capitalist' column and as somewhat equivalent to internal communist suppression of dissent.

Perhaps things are way skewed re: WWII as you say.

Anyway, I'm not sure what such a list is supposed to show. Perhaps you do.

I don't think we've moved much beyond manish's original pt. re: the WWI context in which Bolshevism arose.

just a question when you mention "capitalist" (#111363)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

what period do you have in mind?

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

20th century (#111368)
by catchy

including the state capitalism of the Great Powers in WWI.

would have occurred (#111261)
by Micky Love

would have occurred regardless of the political system of the explorers from Europe

I don't think you have a good grasp on the fundamentals. The rest of the world was feudal at the time of European colonial expansion. Europe was capitalist. Capitalism requires expansion into new markets. That is why it was Europeans who embarked on the colonial project, and others, the Chinese or Indians, say, didn't.

Mike Davis on the imposition of Laissez Faire on India is pretty devastating. Here's a review from the Manchester Guardian:

Recording the past can be a tricky business for historians. Prophesying the future is even more hazardous. In 1901, shortly before the death of Queen Victoria, the radical writer William Digby looked back to the 1876 Madras famine and confidently asserted: "When the part played by the British Empire in the 19th century is regarded by the historian 50 years hence, the unnecessary deaths of millions of Indians would be its principal and most notorious monument." Who now remembers the Madrasis?

In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis charts the unprecedented human suffering caused by a series of extreme climactic conditions in the final quarter of the 19th century. Drought and monsoons afflicted much of China, southern Africa, Brazil, Egypt and India. The death tolls were staggering: around 12m Chinese and over 6m Indians in 1876-1878 alone. The chief culprit, according to Davis, was not the weather, but European empires, with Japan and the US. Their imposition of free-market economics on the colonial world was tantamount to a "cultural genocide".

These are strong words. Yet it's hard to disagree with them after reading Davis's harrowing book. Development economists have long argued that drought need not lead to famine; well-stocked inventories and effective distribution can limit the damage. In the 19th century, however, drought was treated, particularly by the English in India, as an opportunity for reasserting sovereignty.

A particular villain was Lord Lytton, son of the Victorian novelist Edward Bulwer-Lytton ("It was a dark and stormy night...") after whom, today, a well-known bad writing prize is named. During 1876 Lytton, widely suspected to be insane, ignored all efforts to alleviate the suffering of millions of peasants in the Madras region and concentrated on preparing for Queen Victoria's investiture as Empress of India. The highlight of the celebrations was a week-long feast of lucullan excess at which 68,000 dignitaries heard her promise the nation "happiness, prosperity and welfare".

Lytton believed in free trade. He did nothing to check the huge hikes in grain prices, Economic "modernization" led household and village reserves to be transferred to central depots using recently built railroads. Much was exported to England, where there had been poor harvests. Telegraph technology allowed prices to be centrally co-ordinated and, inevitably, raised in thousands of small towns. Relief funds were scanty because Lytton was eager to finance military campaigns in Afghanistan. Conditions in emergency camps were so terrible that some peasants preferred to go to jail. A few, starved and senseless, resorted to cannibalism. This was all of little consequence to many English administrators who, as believers in Malthusianism, thought that famine was nature's response to Indian over-breeding.

It used to be that the late 19th century was celebrated in every school as the golden period of imperialism. While few of us today would defend empire in moral terms, we've long been encouraged to acknowledge its economic benefits. Yet, as Davis points out, "there was no increase in India's per capita income from 1757 to 1947". In Egypt, too, the financial difficulties caused to peasants by famine encouraged European creditors to override the millennia-old tradition that tenancy was guaranteed for life. What little relief aid reached Brazil, meanwhile, ended up profiting British merchant houses and the reactionary sugar-planter classes.

The European "locusts" did not go unchallenged. Rioting became common. Banditry increased. In China, drought-famine helped to spark the Boxer uprising. In Europe, the fin de siècle was largely an opportunity for pale-faced men to wear purple cummerbunds and spout rotten symbolist poetry; for colonized peoples it genuinely seemed to presage mass extinction. It was, says Davis, "a new dark age of colonial war, indentured labour, concentration camps, genocide, forced migration, famine and disease."

Davis's attention to the importance of environment may recall the work of the Annales school of historians, but he is far more radical than any of them. His writing, both here and in such classic books as City of Quartz and Ecology of Fear, is closer to that of Latin American intellectuals such as Ariel Dorfman and the Urguayan, Eduardo Galaeno, who for decades have spotlighted capitalism's casual abuse of the third world and who have sought to champion the poor and dispossessed. Such commitment, forcefully and lucidly expressed, is unfashionable these days.

"Class" may be passé in academic circles, yet the catalogue of cruelty Davis has unearthed is jaw-dropping. A friend to whom I lent the book was reduced to tears by it. Late Victorian Holocausts is as ugly as it is compelling. But, as Conrad's Marlow said in Heart of Darkness : "The conquest of the earth, which means the taking away from those who have a different complexion and slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look at it too much."

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

I'll assume you don't understand French (#111252)
by HankP

or understand it even less well than I do (hard to imagine). The list we're discussing only covers the 20th century. And by the way, if you're going to count deaths from famine, then you should count them for capitalist countries as well, as food distribution and pricing is certainly an "ideological feature" of capitalist systems.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

count deaths from famine (#111257)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

well if you are talking about Stalin and the 30s, it was self-inflicted as someone had to pay for the new steel mills, new roads, new mines et al

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

The Great Famine in Ireland. -nt- (#111310)
by Jordan

.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I'm sure you had a point (#111313)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

but I suspect it just isn't relevant with respect to what happened in both situations, unless of course you believe the British were pursuing geonocide.

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

The British were pursuing profit motive. -nt- (#111315)
by Jordan

.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

They were? (#111324)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

What profit did they intend to make?

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

Why, sale of a limited resource. (#111329)
by Jordan

What other kind is there?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

What resource was that, with respect to Ireland (#111334)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

nt

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

Why, potatoes, of course. (#111341)
by Jordan

Export figures are available online.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

they didn't have any potatos (#111347)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

but they did have a fair amount of blacken wet husks.

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

Oh. They had *some*. (#111350)
by Jordan

Check out those export tables. Other food crops, their commodity price suddenly zinging, were going hotcakes around the Empire as well.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

not a one (#111355)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

and that was the problem, er the Irish relied on one

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

The List Includes. . . (#111254)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .the world wars, making the "capitalist" angle dishonest. Again.

And no, unless the capitalist system disrupted a functional system that was feeding the inhabitants--as was clearly the case with the communist countries--famines in capitalist countries don't count.

--

Why? (#111258)
by HankP

if two communist countries fought a war, would you attribute that to communism?

I just get the feeling, especially from BD's original comment, that everything that happens in communist countries is the result of communism but there's all kinds of reasons given for why the same is not true of capitalist countries. It just looks like a big thumb on the scales to me, with no real interest in an objective accounting.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Exactly. Why? (#111309)
by Jordan

Aren't wars what happens to economics when diplomacy fails?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

There never were 70 million NAs in America AFAIK. (#111176)
by tomsyl

Teh biggest figure I've seen was less than twenty million; more likely, less than ten million. Who made that 70 million number up? Or were they killed before they were born?

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

20 Million Was The Figure. . . (#111207)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .I remember seeing most, though blaming "capitalism" for the fact that Native Americans had no natural resistance to smallpox, et al, is pretty much going to brand the speaker as a left-wing propagandist in my eyes. Putting 58 million deaths from WWI & II in the "capitalist" column isn't exactly primed to pass the laugh test, either.

--

"Who made that 70 million number up?" (#111185)
by catchy

Bird Dog.

You said your French was no good, but here's the non world wars tally:

http://www.prs12.com/article.php3?id_article=5242

Donde esta la biblioteca (#111370)
by Bird Dog

Oops, wrong language. I was just drilling down to the talk section of the wiki. Anyway, Hank's wiki says 58 million died in WWI and WWII, which counts as deaths under capitalist systems. This is particularly egregious re WWII since the Nazis had serious issues with capitalism. Anyway, it wasn't capitalist systems that were responsible for those deaths because they involved wars between nations, and there were other issues involved. The communist statistics are based on deaths of citizens under communist rule, so the comparison is apples and oranges.

It's also apples and oranges because capitalism isn't a political ideology, it's an economic system. If they wanted to make real comparisons, they'd make them between communist governments and freely elected representative republics, or between communist nations and fascist governments, or between communist governments and [fill in your regime type of choise].

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I retract! (#111376)
by catchy

Someone else made that # up.

Seriously, AFAICT, that's just not accurate.

manish already answered your question:

And while it is true that going to war on your people as Stalin did with the kulaks and in the Ukraine is different from going to war with your neighbours, at the end of the day, to the individuals affected, it hardly makes a significant difference.

Sounds reasonable to me.

It's also apples and oranges because capitalism isn't a political ideology, it's an economic system.

What happened to $1, one vote?

But seriously, that's fine. There's a lot of ways to split these things up and I don't think lumping the PRC, Sandistas, Ethiopian military dictatorship, etc is necessarily useful either.

No Offense To Manish. . . (#111380)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .but the "it doesn't matter to the dead" argument is a copout--always has been.

--

Got it - thx (#111198)
by tomsyl

Some of those numbers look inflated, too, but the 100,000 figure sounds in the ballpark.

What's with the claim that all of the wars, famines, floods, deaths from typhoons and so forth are attributable to capitalism? Or the Tsutsi/Hutu conflict, to pick one at random? Or the Turks' genocide against the Armenians? And it seems particularly ludicrous to blame 6 million deaths on capitalists for "La guerre civile en URSS, les famines et les épidémies consécutives aux interventions étrangères et au blocus par l’Occident."

Oh, wait, it's written by the French. Never mind.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

tomsyl I have no idea (#111212)
by catchy

I'm not sure it's interesting to speak of 'capitalist' vs. 'communist' deaths in this way.

I took the book mostly to be utilizing the same methodology as the one about Communism. And I don't think floods + typhoons counted in either.

I don't have a prob. w. e.g. counting 'the Turks' genocide against the Armenians' b/c I assume the Ottoman Empire is as capitalist in 1915 as the PRC is communist.

Really until we have some idea about the original claim and how it was calculated this ain't that interesting of a disucssion.

BD threw it out there, I think he should do the accounting.

Minor point: (#111229)
by tomsyl

famine is counted in India, Bangladesh and SE Asia, which is where my bit about typhoons came from.

If someone was able to prove that more people have died from wars caused by capitalist countries than by communist ones, and the numbers were, say, 70 million here and 55 million over there, what would we be supposed to do in response?

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

What would we be supposed to do in response? (#111302)
by Jordan

I dunno, take more responsibility for the consequences of US foreign policy?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

How would that have stopped WWs I and II, (#111393)
by tomsyl

which contribute the lion's share of deaths attributed to capitalism in the text? Even the far-left French authors aren't trying to blame everything on us.

But that wasn't really the question. If we accept those arguments as true and the number of deaths supposedly attributable to capitalists is more than those to communists, what then? Are we supposed to change to a communist society? If not, what use are the numbers, except as a college poli-sci seminar topic?

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Non sequitur, tomsyl. (#111420)
by Jordan

You asked what *we* are supposed to do, knowing that capitalism's history is every bit as bloody as communism's (or, let's face it, every empire-building ideology ever dreamed up as rationale for taking over the neighboring villages). The answer is, stop assuming our actions are invariably good and actually consider consequences before screwing with other people in other countries (Iraq, Vietnam, etc.).

The fact that a little self-awareness on our part wouldn't've stopped wars begun by German aggression makes no nevermind.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Do you apply (#111210)
by HankP

the same skepticism to the numbers quoted for Communist regimes?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Translation (#111260)
by M Scott Eiland

You've got nothing. Typhoons, annoying as they are, are not capitalists. The French authors in question are dishonest propagandists, and not even clever ones.

--

Like I said (#111272)
by HankP

everything that happens under communism is the fault of the communists, but everything that happens under capitalism isn't the fault of capitalists. You don't seem to understand that if a person is starving it doesn't really matter if it's because there's no food available or because they can't afford it, they'll starve just the same. Distribution and pricing are certainly the "ideologically directed agriculture practices" of capitalism.

I'm a capitalist, but I don't understand the games you're playing with the numbers here.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

You Can Continue Ignoring What I Write. . . (#111275)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .but I've explained the difference more than adequately. Whether you choose to ignore the facts is, of course, your business.

--

Of course I would, if I knew what they were. Or cared. (#111226)
by tomsyl

The only commie genocidists I know anything about are Stalin and Pol Pot. Arguing over the exact number that either of them killed is pointless IMHO. the only significance of the communist system there seems to be is that you can kill more of your own people without them voting you out of office.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

If you don't care (#111256)
by HankP

then why are you discussing this?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Hey, my French is lousy (#111190)
by HankP

but even I can see that the number they quote for Native Americans is 100 thousand, not 70 million.

Les dernières répressions anti-indiennes aux USA, qui virent le terme du génocide engagé au XIXème siècle : 100 000

very rough translation:

The last anti-Indian repressions in the USA, seen as the end of the genocide begun during the 19th century: 100,000

--

I blame it all on the Internet

The Permanent Revolution always destroys as it builds anew (#110910)
by BlaiseP

The First World War was a meatgrinder. The Permanent Revolution had created the machine gun, the old Empires hadn't adapted.

Stalin didn't adapt, either. He set the USSR back a century. Oh, they got to space, but in many ways, he strangled the Revolution. As you say, it really doesn't make any difference who oppresses whom.

I'm writing and rewriting my next installment, because the Second International is where the Communists begin to go off the rails. Trotsky decides to back the Bolsheviks, hoping to temper Lenin's vicious and intemperate fervor with some measure of inclusiveness. As we all know, he failed, and millions would die. Millions more would be enslaved.

Still, Trotksy and Maoism have tremendous appeal in agrarian societies. Communism still sprouts like a weed when mankind still lives in serfdom. It is, without a doubt, the most poisonous and deeply evil philosophy ever to enter the mind of man.

What do you expect? (#110982)
by HankP

Desperate people make desperate choices. One thing that's common to all the countries that had successful Communist revolutions or takeovers was that the bulk of the population suffered under cruel authoritarian regimes (except China, that was more of a completely dysfunctional central government with some other historical and cultural issues thrown in). There's a reason for that - my guess is that anyone here, left or right, who found themselves in a brutal authoritarian country would see Communism as way out too.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Getting warm. Only happens under feudalism. (#111007)
by BlaiseP

where people don't own the land. Communism never succeeded anywhere else. As Frank Zappa said "Communism will never work because people like to own things"

It's all fine and good to say "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", play share and share alike when you're an illiterate peasant and ain't got nothing to share. Once they've got their Glorious Marxist State, it's more like "the shortages will be divided among the peasants"

That's a pretty flexible definition of feudalism (#111014)
by HankP

Cuba was feudalist? Or Viet Nam? Or Nicaragua? I think you're trying to be too specific, it's the oppression that matters, not the label we apply to it. I'm pretty sure not every country on this list was feudal.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Sure, absolutely. See if you can follow my logic here. (#111022)
by BlaiseP

Cuba was run by a few Dueños, who ran these enormous plantations called Fincas. Traditional Spanish land ownership system (which is why Communism nearly caught on there, too). Vietnam, one huge rubber plantation for the benefit of Michelin.

Mao Zedong: "Every landless peasant is already a Communist"

I agree with the idea (#111028)
by HankP

just not the labeling. It's the oppression that matters, not the specifics of how it's organized. It would be like calling sharecropping feudalism - there are similarities, but I'm not sure if the label fits.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Well, yeah, point taken, yet consider this angle... (#111090)
by BlaiseP

Arguably, the Black Death settled all scores in Europe. Everything changed in its wake: peasants had more land to farm and the feudal lords couldn't stop the peasants from migrating to the cities, which they did in astonishing numbers. The concept of the serf died in Europe. Ireland and Britain, slightly different stories, but the mercantile engine of the West is built in no small part on the competition for peasants. Land was cheap and workers were scarce.

The Black Plague isn't a complete explanation: nothing is. Europe just dies back horribly, even after the Black Plague, things continue to get worse for many decades. It's not really until about 1500 when Europe begins to get back on its feet economically, with the voyages of exploration, Columbus, New World gold and the like.

The West was overpopulated, it's surprising the Dark Ages lasted as long as they did. The Renaissance didn't make much difference to the lowly peasant, I don't know why they make such a big deal of it in children's history books, its influence never reached ordinary people. But the Plague did, and long-term, it overthrew the old social order. The Church's influence declined, revolts of all sorts broke out, religious wars, free-thinkers, you name it, they were thinking it in those days.

Now, this is a long stretch, feel free to laff at it, but it's my belief Eastern Europe held onto feudalism longer because it wasn't emptied out like the West. When the West turned to overseas empires, they showed they had learned nothing: as soon as they could, they began enslaving whole countries and creating a new feudal order. The cotton gin and the sugar mill only made matters worse. This, too was feudalism, only without any notion of loyalty on either side of fealty.

Dup post (#111021)
by BlaiseP

n/t

Often it's the only 'grass roots' way out (#110988)
by Spartacvs

When the 'Democracies' conspire against you as in post WW2 Vietnam.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Neolithic man created oyster middens meters deep. (#110768)
by BlaiseP

Believe me, we'll be mining those dumps in a few years.

About Permanent Revolution (#110654)
by mmghosh

this was pretty much a bogey raised by Stalin in the 1920s and 30s to create an artificial diference between himself and Trotsky.

Pretty much all the Politburo in 1918 genuinely believed that they had lit a Permanent Revolution conflagration that would spread to Western Europe (and which nearly did, of course, e.g. in Germany where the ex-master butcher Noske crushed the Spartacists.)

the difference between Stalin and Trotsky (#110726)
by Micky Love

I agree that the difference between Stalin and Trotsky is overblown. You can throw in Mao for good measure. If Trotsky had somehow gained power and, like Stalin, wanted to affect fundamental change on an industrial scale with the full power of modern state machinery behind it, then there is no reason to believe the same catastrophes would not have happened. It's all very well for Trotsky to bemoan the bureaucrats from the distance of his exile - Mao did just after the Great Leap Forward - but I am not convinced Trotsky'd have behaved much differently than Stalin whom we take comfort in portraying as some kind of monster. The forces unleashed during these experiments went far beyond the capacity of one man to control or even understand.

Those successful communist leaders who did avoid bloodbaths like Ho, Tito and Castro had much more modest goals in mind.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Why would you say such a thing? Trotsky would break with Lenin (#110729)
by BlaiseP

over far less significant power grabs. Trotsky knew, right from the start, that concentrating power in the hands of the few would lead to tyranny.

I take no comfort in calling Stalin a monster. He was a monster. You need to go back and read Animal Farm again. Ho Chi Minh ran a terror state and drove off his Catholics, those he did not murder outright. Tito was an autocrat whose solution to every problem was to gin up fresh enemies and purge them. There is also his persecution of the Serbs to consider, which would give rise to the Balkans wars which followed his death. Tito was a very nasty dictator. As for Castro, he bankrupted Cuba and ran a horrible little police state. Castro was a cat's paw for the GRU and KGB, he was no fan of democracy in any sense of that word.