HRC and supporters on Obama's remarks


I'm not going to rehash the dust-up over Obama's recent "bitter" comment; I think his responses (1, 2) speak for themselves. What I would like to do is note the characterization of his remarks by the Clinton campaign and supporters. I will leave it to readers to judge for themselves whether HRC et al are being honest, fair, or productive in how they present Obama's remarks. I've organized this so that it is easy to refer to and comment upon each individual statement.

I. Context: First, some background material that you may or may not find relevant.

(a) Here is the Obama statement:

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

(b) Here is a definition of "cling":

1. To hold fast or adhere to something, as by grasping, sticking, embracing, or entwining: clung to the rope to keep from falling; fabrics that cling to the body.
2. To remain close; resist separation: We clung together in the storm.
3. To remain emotionally attached; hold on: clinging to outdated customs.

(c) Here is Bill Clinton from December 2007:

So I think that the rise of this is sort of crystallized for a lot of people, that I think doubling healthcare premiums has had a lot to do with this -- the further loss of health insurance coverage in America. So there's a lot of economic anxiety.

In the Republican Party, it expresses itself as this sort of very hard line against immigration. In the Democratic Party, it expresses itself in a very hard line against trade. But the real problem is we haven't created enough good new jobs.

II. HRC campaign response: these are comments from either Hillary or her prominent supporters or high-level campaign managers.

(a) This is a statement from Clinton herself regarding Obama's remarks, made Saturday, quoted from CNN, emphasis mine:

"Americans who believe in God believe it's a matter of personal faith," she said, to periodic applause. "People of faith I know don't cling to religion because they are bitter. People embrace faith not because they are materially poor but because they are spiritually rich."

On the issue of guns, Clinton said: "People of all walks of life hunt, and they enjoy doing do because its an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."

(b) Senator Bayh speaking Saturday; CNN notes that he was "made available to reporters by the Clinton campaign to speak about the controversy."

“I think you’re on dangerous ground when you morph that into suggesting that people’s cultural values, whether its religion or hunting and fishing or concerns about trade, are premised solely upon those of kind of anxieties and don’t have a legitimate foundation independent of them,” Bayh said.

(c) HRC chief strategist Geoffrey Garin in an interview posted at TPM:

"Working class people in all parts of America are frustrated, but they are not small-minded in the way that Senator Obama's comments conveyed," Garin said.

[...] When I suggested that Hillary's denunciation of Obama's comments as "elitist" and "out-of-touch" was overstated, and argued that Obama had merely made the "What's the Matter With Kansas" argument in a clumsy way, Garin said: "To say that people cling to their religion out of economic frustration couldn't be more out of touch."

III. Pro-Hillary bloggers: Obviously these don't have nearly the importance or relevance as the campaign response, but they are interesting nonetheless.

(a) Two diaries taken from the rec list at MyDD Saturday:

Obama's elitist contempt for everyday people: "Barack Obama is once again showing his enmity for common people in small town America."

Typical White People AGAIN!: "he came out with a laundry list of sterotypes against the working class. Slurs which denigrate an entire culture. Obama doesn't get white people of a certain class."

(b) From the front page of TalkLeft:

I can't help wondering what John Edwards thinks about Barack Obama's slam of rural Americans.

(c) From the front page at No Quarter (fleaflicker has also frequently made the rec list at MyDD):

Welcome to Bittergate!: "We all knew it would happen. Finally Obama would say something that would betray his arrogant condescension toward almost all other Americans in a way that was so heinous that even the Obamedia couldn’t cover it up."

Hillary says Obama is Elitist and Out of Touch: "Today Hillary went right after Obama for his demeaning remarks about small town hardworking Americans. [...] And then she hit him on religion. Because if there is one thing that we all know for certain, it is that Barack Obama’s religious beliefs and practices are not those of mainstream America. It’s no wonder he doesn’t understand us.

I could go on, but we're going downhill pretty rapidly with the blogs.

IV. Branding: This is a somewhat separate topic, but I also want to note that the manner in which Clinton criticized Obama will have an impact upon the ability of the Democratic party to shape the narrative for November.

(a) Clinton Friday, from ABC:

"I saw in the media it's being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter. Well, that's not my experience," Clinton said. "As I travel around Pennsylvania, I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They are working hard everyday for a better future, for themselves and their children. Pennsylvanians don't need a president who looks down on them, they need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, your families."

(b) Clinton Saturday, from CNN:

Clinton told an audience of automotive workers here that she was "taken aback by the demeaning remarks Sen. Obama made about people in small town America."

"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist and out of touch," she said. "they are not reflective of the values and beliefs of Americans [...] I don't think it helps to divide our country into one America that is enlightened and one that is not," Clinton continued, finishing her remarks with a line she introduced on Friday in Philadelphia after the story broke: "People don't need a president who looks down on them.

Anyway, what's your take?
--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Bittergate? (#89729)
by stillnotking

Bittergate? As in, comparable to Watergate? If this is the kind of thing that American voters, as opposed to pundits, actually get worked up over, all I can say is that I feel an attack of elitism coming on.

Iraq? Who cares? Torture? Yawn. Warrantless wiretapping? I wasn't using the Fourth Amendment anyway. Obama said something mildly patronizing about xenophobia in the Rust Belt? Fetch the shotgun!

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Obama on "What's the Matter with Kansas" in 2004 (#89707)
by brendanm98

via John Cole:


--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

An Unsurprising Remark (#89695)
by AndrewSshi

Among the sort of folks to whom Obama appeals, you can deal with the rubes in flyover country either by means of contempt or patronizing pity. So Obama put into words the way most upper-middle class urban Democrats feel about red staters. Big deal. The man also reached out to the "I'm too sophisticated to feel any patriotic sentiment" folks by refusing to wear a flag lapel pin. What do you expect? It's the Democratic nomination he's going for.

"you can deal with the rubes in flyover country" (#89816)
by Username

Except that Obama wasn't talking about how to deal with "the rubes" -- he's explaining that they're right to be upset at the current government, that he can understand why many people are angry. He employed the same tactic in his speech about race. Did you react to that one by thinking that he appeals to folks for whom "you can deal with the n*****s by means of contempt or patronizing pity" ?

"I'm too sophisticated to feel any patriotic sentiment" (#89813)
by Username

That's a gross misunderstanding. Wearing a pin doesn't make you a patriot. Some people prefer to show their patriotism through actually helpful things like their work rather than empty statements, stickers, or accessories. The pin brigade aren't patriots -- they only like to pretend to be.

Obama will drink McCain's milkshake (#89766)
by Bill White

Rove has been getting lower class whites to vote GOP because of "God, guns and gays" even when the Beltway GOP has consistently trashed the economic interests of those same white people. To be fair, elitist Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Mark Penn (Is he formally a Democrat?) have done much the same thing.

Obama is calling them out on that scam without patronization or pity. He is merely telling the truth.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

You just met a condescending remark (#89740)
by stillnotking

with an even more condescending remark.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Talk of False Consciousness (#89765)
by AndrewSshi

Deserves condescension, if not outright contempt.

What talk of false consciousness? (#89841)
by stillnotking

You're starting to sound like Bill Kristol. Obama's remarks did not mean that religion or gun ownership or xenophobia equate to "false consciousness", merely that those things are rendered more emotionally salient by economic hardship.

It's the wrong way to start a discussion, as anyone who's ever been married should realize, but it's not untrue and it's not part of some overarching false-consciousness theory of politics.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Tacitus was spot on (no, not Josh Trevino ) (#89709)
by Bill White

My paraphrase of what he said over 2000 years ago:

Religion is something the masses generally hold to be true; the wise generally hold to be false and the magistrates generally hold to be useful.

Part of Rove's genius was to persuade poor whites to vote Republican and AGAINST their own economic self interest by trumping up "gun grabber" themes and gay marriage.

Who cares if the Bush-ies engage in reverse Robin Hood on an unprecedented scale, we just can't let a man marry another man!

See today's NRO Corner:

It's important that we pay a lot of attention to Obama's gun-religion-etc. words. Obama made the astonishing comments at a fundraiser filled with wealthy San Franciscans. He was describing the Democratic voters for whose votes he is now campaigning as "losers" who cling to implicitly stupid ideas, like religion, guns, racism, because their formerly well-paying jobs are not coming back.

Obama is saying we need to look behind the curtain at the Great and Mighty Oz and he has been remarkably consistent, as this 2004 You Tube shows . . .


= = =

OF COURSE, religion is not merely the opiate of the people but the Rove-ians are terrified by someone who is willing to say that sometimes religion is used for such purposes.

And if the argument becomes "Is Obama a closet atheist"

I now feel fully vindicated in my suspicion that Obama's attendance at Wright's church was entirely political and expedient. No one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ — or even moderate respect for other people's religious views — thinks in these terms about why working class people might believe in God. Or believes that a more enlightened government will supplant that.

Barack Obama will do just fine, since his leftie sensibilities originate with the Book of Genesis which teaches that we MUST be our brother's keeper, our sister's keeper.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Note that Obama does not say (#89711)
by brendanm98

they vote against their economic interests, merely that if they have no economic reason to support the Democratic candidate (if Dems are perceived as just as bad) they will base their politics around other issues.

It puts the emphasis on the party to connect with these voters through better proposals and following through on promises, rather than saying these voters need to get a clue.

This is a consistent theme of his and it is anti-elitist, not elitist. He phrased it poorly in San Francisco, although from context it was IMHO quite clear what he meant, and now people who one presumes are fully familiar with his views are characterizing him as elitist, in a desperate grab for electoral advantage.

The funniest thing to me is to see the pro-Clinton bloggers who argue that most Dems agree with Obama's views that many in the working-class are understandably bitter for economic reasons and that this shifts their political emphasis to other issues, but -- one must only say that in private! Obama's "gaffe" was to actually tell voters what they agree is accurate... and somehow *he* is the condescending one here!

I am convinced the American people are fed up with slick politicians trying to manipulate them into easy outrage while doing squat to actually address their problems. I think the Wright controversy showed that we want something more from our politicians than shallow pandering.

Obama's race speech didn't gloss over the undeniable black anger or white resentment that is a reality for some people; instead, it explained the understandable origin of such feelings and laid out the path to fixing the underlying problem. I see an opportunity for the same thing here -- the underlying problem, as Bill Clinton himself noted in the quote I give above, is a lack of good new jobs. Yes there is anti-immigrant sentiment and anti-trade sentiment and yes people are more invested in religion or guns if they are bitter about the economy -- so fix the economy!

But it's easier to play gotcha games with out-of-context quotes, I guess.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

some excellent points, but a speech to Marinites was the wrong (#89789)
by tomsyl

place to try something that involves walking the tightropes you accurately (IMO) describe. Far better to have done it in a speech that wasn't the width of the country from those he's discussing; how about actually saying this in Pennsylvania?

Maybe you know, but I can't tell whether BO's remarks were unscripted. The reported text suggests they were ("responding to a question . . ."). If so, might this again illustrate that the guy does way better giving a prepared speech than speeking ex tempore?

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Agree and agree (#89792)
by brendanm98

He was apparently trying to restate a point he's made before and it came out wrong. I guess Clinton and McCain and their supporters believe (or at least want to convince others) he inadvertently revealed his true feelings rather than just made a poor spur-of-the-moment word choice, but I have to say that when one looks at his remarks in context and his previous statements on this topic it seems reasonably clear what he meant.

Obviously his recent remarks on the topic are prepared ahead of time, even the stump speeches, and they come across a lot better. And he's not backing away from the point now that he's not in san fran, just the phrasing.

If he's the nominee he's going to have to work on his off-the-cuff speaking. Although IMHO McCain is not very good live either.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

A good Ob Wi take (#89712)
by Bill White

Obama is running against the Boomer Democratic mindset as well as the Republicans.

publius at Obsidian Wings is on to something here:

Admittedly, Obama’s wording about working class Pennsylvanians was less than ideal. What’s interested me though is not so much his words, but the intensity of the reaction to them. What explains it? It’s not enough to cite “Kinsley Gaffe.” Even assuming he imprudently said what he really thinks (i.e., a Category II Kinsley), the follow-up question is why this particular belief would trigger such an intense backlash. One obvious reason is that it’s an obnoxious way to word his point. The less obvious one, though, is rooted in so-called “liberal self-hatred.”

The best way to understand this phenomenon is to return to the run-up to the Iraq War. Near the beginning of Heads in the Sand, Yglesias spends some time discussing the curious tendency of respected, liberal foreign policy voices to spend their scarce time bashing extreme marginal left-wing views (either imaginary or Ward Churchill-esque). I haven’t read much, so he may go on to explain why anti-war liberals spent so much time attacking the extreme left rather than the imminent war. My theory, though, is that the focus on the margins illustrates liberal guilt and inferiority.

More specifically, I think far too many liberals — particularly those in positions with political or journalistic influence — have deeply internalized conservative criticisms. I suppose these criticisms go back a long way (e.g., Adlai Stevenson), but they seem to have gained greater resonance in the past twenty-five years or so with the rise of Reagan and the 1994 election.

As a result, far too many liberals — particularly circa 2002-03 — had internalized the view that they were snobby, that they were elitist, that they were too anti-religion, or that they were insufficiently patriotic in the eyes of the American public. It’s not so much that they actually were any of these things (at least in any great number). It’s that they feared (deeply feared) being perceived in this way by the American public. To borrow from Dylan, a lot of issues came and went, but the Great Dirty Hippie never escaped their mind.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Don't you think that's pretty thin gruel, though? (#89704)
by Jordan

Not wearing a lapel pin makes you unelectable? Where's Jonathan Swift when you need him?

Isn't it more likely that people are trying to fit Obama into that "intellectual twit" stereotype the GOP has been flogging since the Dukakis era?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I didn't say it made him... (#89757)
by AndrewSshi

unelectable, I said that it was unsurprising.

I don't think (#89696)
by Gabriel

that's what he meant here but I do think the refusing to wear the pin was a dumb move.

--

This place is my vacation.

since when does a pin mean or convey patriotism? (#89811)
by Username

If one wears a pin while supporting an administration that's destroying the rule of law, then that person's not a patriot -- that's a traitor.

Perhaps If So Many Lefties. . . (#89819)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .didn't make a point of whining about flag pins/symbols, Obama's failure to wear one wouldn't have taken on any significance. The article written less than a year after 9/11 wondering about when it would be all right to start complaining about flags again is remembered by many, and it had equally obnoxious progeny.

--

what does hatred of anyone to the left of Tom Delay (#89832)
by Username

have to do with whether wearing a pin or not is a measure of patriotism?

It was a bad slip for Obama (#89691)
by Gabriel

But Clinton can't win as things stand today and McCain has had plenty of verbal slips of his own.

--

This place is my vacation.

Too Early to Tell (#89660)
by Harley

For the Clintonites, it's close to the ninth inning. They need a miracle and they'll take anything they can get when it comes to convincing themselves the miracle is at hand. It's the only way to keep going.

So this will have to do. The drill is no different than before. Destroy Obama's GE viability, hope the Supers will overturn the pledged delegate totals. And sure, the surrogates and Hillary's venal nonsense helps no one but John McCain. And sure, it might even hurt the larger Democratic party as well. But the Clintons never cared about the party. Le party C'est Moi, in other words.

The more important question is how has the last eight years changed the process. Are we at point where voters are simply tired of the same gotcha games, whether played by candidates or pimped by the media. I don't know the answer, tho' I'd guess they're a little less willing to swallow this crap than before. I certainly hope so.

Needless to say, Hillary Clinton is betting they will. Her entire candidacy, pretty much from Ohio/Texas on, has been based on that assumption.

And TalkLeft? Geesh. Add Armando's emotional instability to the already paranoid Clinton fever swamp? Yikes.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

That's the question, yup (#89703)
by brendanm98

Are we at point where voters are simply tired of the same gotcha games, whether played by candidates or pimped by the media. I don't know the answer, tho' I'd guess they're a little less willing to swallow this crap than before. I certainly hope so.

The voters rejected the slice-and-dice Rovian politics with regard to the Wright issue, and Obama was able to take a potential negative and turn it into a positive. People felt like he was genuinely listening and understood them and wasn't just throwing soundbites at them. We will see if something similar happens here, or if the charges of elitism stick.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

More from Sully (#89661)
by Harley

The "bitter" spat is gold for Morris-Rove politics, which is why Clinton is exploiting it so baldly. It is exactly the kind of debate that has constructed American politics since Vietnam; it is exactly the kind of politics that Obama has been trying to transcend. Clinton will use anything at this point to destroy Obama's candidacy and message; but by adopting Rovism at its reddest, the Clintons do risk looking too obvious. Check out the comments in CNN's Politicker. At some point people will realize that the Clintons represent a continuation of the kind of politics that has made a serious engagement with this country's profound problems impossible. Or is acknowledging profound problems now unpatriotic?

Is this election about how to salvage the least worst option in the Iraq disaster? Is it about restoring some kind of fiscal sanity? Is it about doing all we can to unite Americans in a war against Islamic terrorism? Is it about restoring America's compliance with the Geneva Conventions? Or is it again about red-blue culture wars? We know what the professional political class is comfortable with. We know what Rove and Bush and Penn and Clinton believe. What we will find out soon is if Americans want more of the same. It's a free country - and people can vote. Goodbye to all that? Or hello again - for yet another cycle?

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Damn good stuff. (#89676)
by Jordan

Sometimes I forget why so many people pay attention to him. Thanks for the reminder.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Hillary Clinton: Duck hunter (#89655)
by Bill White

Heh!

Maybe Obama hung a curve ball with his recent comments, maybe not. But it won't matter because Hillary Clinton swings and misses and probably will again.

Link

VALPARAISO, Indiana (CNN) — Hillary Clinton appealed to Second Amendment supporters on Saturday by hinting that she has some experience of her own pulling triggers.

* * *

“You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said.

Maybe that is why she was so calm facing sniper fire.

Anyway, then there was this:

Minutes later, in a slightly awkward moment, Clinton faced a question from a woman in the audience whose son had been paralyzed by a gunshot. The woman asked Clinton what she would do about gun control as president.

Clinton touted her husband's record on gun control during his administration, and said "there is not a contradiction between protecting Second Amendment rights" and the effort to reduce crime.

Noting that many hunters and gun collectors want to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals, Clinton referred to her positive childhood experiences with firearms.

"As I told you, my dad taught me how to shoot behind our cottage,” she said. “I have gone hunting. I am not a hunter. But I have gone hunting."

Clinton said she has hunted ducks.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Now we've gone from ducking snipers (#89677)
by Jordan

to sniping ducks?

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

OK, now that was funny. (#89881)
by tomsyl

The longer it takes for a joke to sink in with me, the funnier it will be to someone swifter. Think of me as your slow-mo barometer; a 78 RPM record running at 33 1/3.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Maybe it's because I avoid cable news like the plague... (#89653)
by Wagster

... but can I just say I'm astounded at the play this has gotten. On the scale of infelicitous (and embarrassing) sentence constructions, this is about a 3.

--

More Wagster!

He also is a lousy bowler (#89705)
by brendanm98

Stop the presses, I guess...

Edit: here's one take on the cable news silliness.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

Barack's like a guy moving furniture downstairs (#89678)
by Jordan

on rollerskates. Also, he's festooned with porkchops and is surrounded by javelinas high on angel dust. This is a guy who can't afford to stumble.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Thanks for my first good laugh of the day. nt (#89698)
by stillnotking

.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

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