The Unfortunate Hyperpartisan Mindset
The apparent hyperpartisan mindsets, respectively, and state of political discourse that exists and will persist until November in America. To my disappointment, I think I've seen a lot of it here on Forvm. I hope I'm wrong, or that if I'm right, things improve. For what it's worth, perhaps this diary will be unifying: you can all agree that I'm wrong, and that it's my problem, not yours. But I encourage you not to reflexively, defensively reject what I'm saying, and instead to really give it some thought. Think about if you want Forvm to be a just place for partisans of each side to come and hurl talking points over each other's heads, or if you want Forvm to be a place where people come for serious, responsive, genuine, good-faith, logical, rational, substantive discussion/debate through which people can learn from others and influence others.
I realize it probably comes across as arrogant for a relative newcomer to say stuff like this, but as you guys like to say, address the comment, not the commenter.
As an important note, the mindsets below are not just meant to represent initial assumptions/conclusions, but also rigid positions unshakable by any contrary argument (and such arguments will often not even be addressed directly, logically, and substantively).
Obama Supporters:
| Definitely Valid | Possibly Valid / Possibly Invalid | Definitely Invalid | |
| Definitely worth hearing and worth stating loudly and often. | Anything positive about Obama. Anything negative about McCain. | Nothing | Nothing |
| Possibly worth hearing and stating | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing |
| Definitely not worth hearing or stating. | Nothing | Nothing | Anything positive about McCain. Anything negative about Obama. |
McCain Supporters:
| Definitely Valid | Possibly Valid / Possibly Invalid | Definitely Invalid | |
| Definitely worth hearing and worth stating loudly and often. | Anything positive about McCain. Anything negative about Obama. | Nothing | Nothing |
| Possibly worth hearing and stating | Nothing | Nothing | Nothing |
| Definitely not worth hearing or stating. | Nothing | Nothing | Anything positive about Obama. Anything negative about McCain. |
--
- Brooks and B Rational's blog
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I'd advise against posting your email address in standard format. Spambots doncha know. Better to post it in a format similar to: youraddy at youremailserviceprovider dot com.
RE: reasoned debate & what you perceive as partisanship preventing people engaging you in the discussions you want to have.
Plenty of people here are partisan, no doubts about that. It doesn't necessarily follow that that is what prevents them from engaging you the way you want to be engaged. I'm thinking in particular of some hypothetical situations that you've brought up in the past. My sense is that [many, maybe most] people here are simply not interested in some of the topics you want to debate, or in the frame/format in which you want to discuss them. Rather than get bent out of shape about it, follow the tangets where they lead. Some of the most interesting discussions I've read here have been generated on topics that are distantly related, or sometimes completely unrelated, to the diary in which they arose.
--For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin
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)I appreciate your thoughts (and you advice regarding email), but I have to say that what has actually encountered are not people who simply resist some rigid, idiosyncratic approach I wish to take, but rather people who simply do not want to think through their positions (and alternative positions), arguments, and underlying premises and logic. I try to get people to do so, and I get a lot of pushback:
- sometimes because people aren't sufficiently capable of logical argumentation.
- sometimes apparently because they aren't interested in thinking things through and discussing/debating (apparently they see no benefit, since they have a strong sense that they are right, which is good enough for them, so no point in wasting time and exerting energy really thinking about it and debating it.
- sometimes apparently because they are afraid they won't be able to defend their position and arguments if they engage directly and logically, and, for partisan and/or personal reasons, they don't want to concede anything either.
People are certainly entitled to avoid thinking things through, individually and collectively as a community, but I don't see it as a neutral matter, because we are talking about public policy, not discussing/debating who is the best shortstop in the American League. So, here on Forvm and elsewhere*, I have encouraged a higher level of debate that I consider not only better for our intellectual environment, but more importantly, better for America and the world in that it would be more conducive to good policies, as well as more conducive to goodwill among people with different views.
But sure, ultimately people can have whatever type of forum with whatever type and quality of political discourse they want, and I think I'm just about done encouraging change here, since it seems there is little/no positive response to my efforts, and I don't think further effort is likely to yield positive results.
* the elsewhere being on partisan "echo chamber" blogs of right and left, where I haven't had much success, not surprisingly. But I would assume a greater possibility of some success on a relatively ideologically diverse site, even one substantially tilted toward one side of the partisan divide.
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| parent )But I will insert the observation that whenever you hear a "it's you" and "no it's you" back and forth, the chances are astronomically high that it's really both.
The pile on isn't making anyone here look good, but the doggedness isn't shining a bright light either.
[Now, everyone can turn on me, that should bring ya'll together!]
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I Love You Man!
Anyway, I took a look at the Swords Crossed version of the same "Obama can't give a Straight Answer" diary and while there were many, many fewer comments I did not see anything that looked like superior discussion.
Not really worse, but not really better, either.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )...is clearly fallacious and a non-logical argument. The new guy should be able to say anything he wants and if he's right, he's right.
On the other hand, tedious is just tedious. It is only because this has gone on for days and days and days that the "New Guy," argument even comes up...eventually, everything gets said if you talk long enough.
Interestingly, B&BR being right, however, no matter how many words get written...doesn't seem to be computing....random chance would indicate that somewhere on this spinning wheel that possibility would pop up...but not yet, nor does there seem to even be a possibility now.
Beating a dead horse....is not so much cruel, though cruel the death may have been, but foolish....
Pig and lipstick...all that stuff, you know.
Moving right along now, Traveller
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
| parent )Oh snap!
On an unrelated note, somebody at SC just randomly posted this: "I do think the Forvum is somewhat more intellectual than us troglodites over here." WHAT-ever =)
Me, I think it's just people, everywhere you go. Certainly the structure/rules can certainly help encourage respectful discussion between folks with different political ideologies, and a community culture can help promote introspection and reflection rather than exchange of partisan talking points. Still, there's not a lot of places where logical debate absent partisan rancor actually takes place. I do think it's worth aspiring to as at least one facet of any self-described bipartisan blog, but it's a journey to get there.
Two other brief opinions: as sites get larger, they tend to get more partisan, and it seems to be a positive feedback effect. Second, as sites grow the front-page posters whose writing originally drew thoughtful new users have less time for careful writing and come to rely more on fast and easy attack pieces, which is then seen as the standard for the site.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )The new guy shouldn't go around telling everyone else what they are doing wrong. Even it the new guy is correct, his message won't be heard because the people who have been there longer will resent his presumptive opinions about their behavior.
This isn't an equal relationship like a marriage.
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )who have been there longer will resent his presumptive opinions?
But then, maybe those people wouldn't be the target of his suggested changes in approaches to discussion, either.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )I wouldn't join the Rotary Club and then presume to tell them why their organization isn't functioning properly. Regardless of how right or wrong I am, the only thing I would accomplish would be to step on some toes.
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )whenever you hear a "it's you" and "no it's you" back and forth, the chances are astronomically high that it's really both.
Perhaps in a marriage. Not as a general rule, at least not to the degree/probability that you state. It's not uncommon in a debate over the validity of some premise or over logic that one person is simply correct and others are simply incorrect. Of course, more subjective matters, including whether or not it is considerate or worthwhile to continue pressing a point as I have, even if correct, are another story, so if that's what you're referring to re: the "it's you/me" point, I won't dispute that.
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| parent )... but can you point me to some examples, Brooks, of someone there making a logically invalid argument?
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )"Perhaps in a marriage."
The only time it is universally true is when you have a subset of at least 2 arguing about arguing.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Three deadly sins.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )-- And with a commendable evenness of tone, to boot.
This place is not, for good or for ill, a debate club.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )but maybe it would be nice to have a debate room, or a debate night?
It's an idea that some of us (cough) have been trying to promote, on and off, for quite a while now. A way to give everyone what they want!
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )I can't say that I'm especially interested - which I'm sure will just break your heart, right? ;^D
With respect to Brooks, and all those who wish to 'elevate' our political discourse, it sure looks like a mug's game to me - and not because people are intransigently lazy or stupid, but because politics (in the partisan sense of it, anyway) is (for the most part) so much froth to begin with. People treat it with exactly the level of intellectual seriousness it deserves.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Hobbesist is now "point man" for getting "The Forvm™ Debates" up and running! Have it done by next week or "I'll cut your balls off!".
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )... that I've ever seen.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent ).
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )to call this place "hyper-" anything is a bit much, other than maybe hyper-loggorheic or hyper-curmudgeonly. Whenever you demand an answer to a question in terms you define, you're going to get pushback. No one wants to be pigeonholed, or they're thinking ahead to the arguments you may make depending on their answers. That's just the way it is.
EDIT: Also, there's a variety of topics that get discussed here and sometimes you have to pick and choose. I don't get much involved in the classical music threads or the (God forbid) Diplomacy diaries. But if you're expecting completely rational, non-emotional discourse, I'm afraid you'll have to wait until they start making a better model of human being.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)Also, "hyper-" (i.e., excessive) fits.
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| parent )you glossed over the other points I made, which are more directly relevant to your diaries and comments. As aireachail said, this is a voluntary community. No one is required to do anything they don't feel like doing. It's really very simple: either you feel that participating here is a worthwhile way to spend your time or you don't. Nobody ever claimed it was perfect.
I'm just trying to keep you from banging your head against a wall which isn't going anywhere.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )What is the sound of Perl? Is it not the sound of a wall that people have stopped banging their heads against?
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| parent )and yet the head banging commences anew every time a programmer takes his first job.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )No one wants to be pigeonholed, or they're thinking ahead to the arguments you may make depending on their answers.
People refusing to give clear, direct answers to legitimate, straight-forward questions (due to the types of concerns you mention) is exactly the kind of problem I'm talking about, whether this evasiveness is due to fear of a partisan talking point/argument ending up weakened, or simply due to fear of losing face personally. People who aren't adult enough (not to mention honest enough and considerate enough) to make a good-faith effort to give clear, direct answers are wasters of other people's time, contribute little, and get in the way of more interesting and productive discussion/debate.
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| parent )Brooks you might find this prior quixotic attempt enlightening.
It's funny re-reading that diary and the comments, because nothing's changed since then. I gave up thinking the Forvm would ever be "a place where people come for serious, responsive, genuine, good-faith, logical, rational, substantive discussion/debate through which people can learn from others and influence others" quite a while ago.
So, I think you're stuck with two alternatives, either you accept the Forvm as it stands – warts and all – or you establish an alternative. I don't have the time or inclination to create (or enforce) what I think the Forvm should be, so I just choose to be a curmudgeonly pain in the ass when I feel like it, and when the signal to noise ratio gets on my nerves I just don't bother for long periods of time.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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)While I don't know the context (what you were reacting to at the time), I liked your diary and my sense is that it was on the money.
It may have been mostly addressing a different dynamic than what I am pointing out, albeit one with the same root cause (excessive partisanship in mindset and commenting). I'm not sure, but your diary may have been mostly addressing insulting tone, which is something I'm not saying exists here (well, not any more than my own at times, including now). I'm talking about reflexive, committed, unshakable partisanship on matters large and small, even in the civil tone that is the norm here on Forvm. I'm talking about people here thinking and acting like campaign spokespeople instead of seeking and contributing to real discussion/debate.
As for an alternative, I have something in mind. Also, as I wrote in an email exactly one month ago to a fellow participant on SwordsCrossed, I see less of this problem there. It's there to some degree, too (SC surely has a few committed, completely predictable partisans), and it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise in an open community, but a greater portion of commenters seem willing and able to discuss/debate matters reasonably and seem to be making a good-faith effort to consider opposing arguments and respond to them directly, logically, and substantively.
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| parent )and speaking as one who generally agrees with you about the partisanship, if the environment at SwordsCrossed is more congenial, why try to change the community here? Especially as a newcomer, you're not likely to change anyone's mind.
But if and when you do establish an alternative, please mention it here -- hopefully it'll happen to be in the Recent Diaries list on a day that I drop by.
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| parent )if the environment at SwordsCrossed is more congenial, why try to change the community here? Especially as a newcomer, you're not likely to change anyone's mind.
Fair question. A few reasons I've tried:
- I don't assume that my suggestions will necessarily be rejected simply because I'm a newcomer, nor that most folks here necessarily prefer the way things are to what I'm suggesting, although I'm fully aware that both are more likely than not. In other words, there is some chance I can effectively encourage the change I suggest.
- As for why I would want to get Forvm to change rather than just blogging on SC and possibly creating my own community blog, (1) I would like very much to have quality discussion/debate with folks here if it is/were generally possible (and it isn't, or is to a only a limited extent, if people are just thinking and acting like partisan spokespeople), and (2) aside from my personal interest, one of my greatest concerns for America is the trend toward increasing partisanship and decreasing quality discussion/debate, and I've been encouraging higher quality discussion/debate for a while now, and will continue to do so, even though I'm an imperfect messenger who doesn't always do what would be optimal vis a vis that objective (basically, I sometimes lose patience and speak my mind frankly when ideally I'd stay very diplomatic).
But if and when you do establish an alternative, please mention it here -- hopefully it'll happen to be in the Recent Diaries list on a day that I drop by.
If I do set up such a blog, I'll probably build the community by invitation only initially, and then by invitation by an existing member of the community, rather than broadcasting its existence, at least early on. Otherwise people would come who won't necessarily be capable and willing to engage in the kind of discussion/debate I'm talking about, and then I/we would have to deal with them after the fact, which is something I'd want to avoid/minimize. But if you are interested, please drop me an email at
and I'll email you if and when I put together such a site.
Just to offer some thoughts that, unfortunately, probably won't be appreciated by many here, although I hope some will give it all some serious thought:
On 6/30/08, after having spent a couple of weeks on Forvm, I emailed someone I know from SwordsCrossed about my initial observations:
I've tried over the past several weeks to encourage change by both example -- responding as directly and clearly as possible to others' arguments/questions, trying to be reasonable, being willing to acknowledge negatives about my preferred candidate and strengths of the other, being willing to acknowledge strengths of arguments underling positions with which I disagreed overall and to acknowledge weaknesses/limitations/drawbacks of arguments underlying positions I held -- and by explicitly encouraging all of the above. There were some indications at first that my efforts were appreciated and my suggestions perhaps having (or having the potential to have) some positive influence. But I guess if there isn't a combination of a sufficiently good fit with the group (potential to be and stay receptive to the message) and a sufficiently good approach, there's a limit to such appreciation, and eventually it turns negative, because at some point just about everyone's feathers get ruffled; individuals like it in the abstract and when applied to others, but things change when it touches them (and I suspect that bloggers, being generally proud of the views they express and the way they debate, are not good candidates for constructive criticism with regard to such conduct, and are much more inclined to reflexively reject such criticism, particularly if bolstered by others reacting by expressing a similar sentiment). It's kind of like how lots of people want government to spend less, but no one wants his favorite program cut, or perhaps NIMBY is the best analogy. So ultimately a critical mass builds in which just about everybody just feels annoyed by the guy encouraging change.
There are two problems, actually. One is that many people just aren't that good at logical argumentation (understanding and distinguishing among premises and principles, seeing the logical chain, etc.). But I don't think that's the main problem. Rather, it's the inability or lack of willingness to apply the skill that one does have due to overwhelming bias and/or a commitment to maintaining a position even via arguments one knows or suspects are illegitimate, irrelevant, etc., which in turn are due to partisanship, camaraderie, and/or a desire to avoid losing face on a personal level. Unfortunately, almost by definition, those who think and act that way are not inclined to see it in themselves, and among the few who do, even fewer will admit it. It's just much easier and less uncomfortable to say "the other guy is just wrong and it's obviously his problem, not ours and certainly not mine."
I realize that all of the above may sound very condescending, and that such frankness is quite possibly not the optimal way to achieve my objective, but I'm giving it a shot. I may be overestimating -- perhaps due to my own bias, since I find being frank more satisfying, ceteris paribus -- the possibility that my frank message will get across to at least some people.
Last, important note: As I've said before, I am not painting everyone at Forvm with the same brush by any means. I'm just saying there is far too much of the garbage I've described, IMH (or not so H) O. Moreover, I think even those who do think and comment in the manner I've criticized are people who have much to offer political discourse if they would just break their bad habits.
To all: ok gents, cue replies saying that if you all say one thing and only I say the opposite, I must be wrong, and that I'm hopelessly oblivious of that fact. Oh, and that I should take a hike.
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| parent )it simply isn't your place to change the forvm. Neither is it yours to educate anyone here. To be blunt, you haven't the time-in-grade for either role. I suspect these two things are the greatest sources of the push back you've been experiencing here lately.
This is a relatively congenial and entirely voluntary community. If you want to participate, do so. But do it according to the rules and customs here.
None of those rules require a person to reply to any diary or comment. If you don't get the response you anticipated, let it go. It's easy.
And nobody here is keeping score.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )anyone, no matter how long or sort a time they've spent here, certainly can try to change the place. The problem is expecting or demanding that it change.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )The problem is expecting or demanding that it change
Are you implying that I've done so? Please explain.
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| parent )because you've been so dogged in it's pursuit, and so disappointed that it hasn't come about. Or am I misreading your semi-GBCW post?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Just for the heck of it, here's a link to an exchange on RedState in which I struggled in vain to get a straight answer to a simple, straight-forward hypothetical question. I offer it to everyone to make of it whatever you wish. http://archive.redstate.com/blogs/a_texan/2007/sep/20/a_social_conservative_responds_to_dobson_on_thompson#comment-525622
Note: Up until that point I had been on a very friendly basis with Gamecock (sometimes emailing about baseball as well as politics), and the nicknames I call him are friendly, based on inside jokes.
I'm "BrooksRob" (as in Brooks Robinson, my favorite baseball player during my childhood)
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| parent )First, you just moved the goalposts. You said two things: (1) expect, and (2) demand.
If you're taking back the "demand" part as unsubstantiated, ok, good.
As for "expect", that's quite vague, as it's a matter of probability. Did I think that think that there was some significant chance that I could have some positive influence? Obviously yes, or I wouldn't have tried. At the other extreme, was I highly confident that I could change people's thinking and conduct sufficiently for me to want to continue spending a great amount of time here discussing/debating matters that tend to be partisan battles? No, but I thought the odds weren't that bad. While I hadn't quantified the probability explicitly in my head, I'd say I was probably thinking there was around a 50% chance of effecting that degree of change.
I have way too much experience with folks who are "stuck on partisan" to think that I can wave some magic wand and assume they'll change substantially.
I've explained why I've "been so dogged in it's pursuit", meaning why I consider such change important. Hopefully now I've explained now to your satisfaction that I was not "demanding" this change, and that, although I thought it was possible, I didn't consider it anything close to a certainty.
As for GBCW (which ya' made me Google, ya' bastid), nah, I'm just expressing disappointment, partly as a concluding appeal to people to think about the point and suggestion I've offered, and I suppose partly just to vent. I assume there will be stuff I'll want to get into here to some degree, and I'm still up for beers with the NYC gang, but for the most part I'll probably just have to get my political/philisophical blogging discussion/debate fix elsewhere, where I think enough people share my interest in and intent and ability to engage in...well, real discussion/debate. (again, I'm not painting everyone at Forvm with the same broad brush)
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| parent )I said expect or demand, because I wasn't sure where you fit on that spectrum.
You know, this place is what it is. It has inertia, and changes will happen only slowly and with either a great amount of effort from a few or less effort from the many. Add in that very few people have the time or desire to put that much effort into it, and you're looking at a slow moving process. I hope you stick around, but you may have to adjust your expectations.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )fair enough, thanks.
Now pretty please with sugar on top, clean the f-ckin' car.
(Scene beginning at 4:30) (big time profanity warning)
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| parent )(even bigger profanity warning)
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )this place is what it is
I can, like, dig it.
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| parent )maybe if I threw in some Ding an sich or Wille zur Macht you wouldn't be so dismissive. What can I say, I only have a BA.
Besides, I know you're sitting in your bomb shelter planning your political comeback. I expect the attack videos on the mods to start getting posted on youtube any day now.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )What can I say, I only have a BA.
Poor hankP. And now I'm a snob coz you posted drivel? Nice try.
I'm gonna ding your sich.
As for political comebacks, I'll admit Ive been blunting in the bomb shelter:
(good name of a reggae remix)
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| parent )There's an ancient proverb:
"A Zen head and a Hawaiian shirt are often found on the same body."
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| parent ). . .to start daily Olympics blogging here starting next Friday for the duration of the Beijing Games, so if you're interested in that and want a break from the politics you could always comment on those.
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| parent )Hopefully you'll find some time to devote to Olympic tennis, among all the other storylines. I wouldn't expect much from non-Williams Americans, but the mens' side could be interesting - if for no other reason than a nationalistic twist to the familiar Federer-Nadal rivalry.
(Sorry to inform you, if you didn't know already, that it looks like you won't get to enjoy the sight of Ms. Sharapova there - she just pulled out of Montreal with a shoulder injury. Hopefully Ms. Ivanovic's thumb stays OK ... I mean, for Serbia's sake. Why else would I be interested?)
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Having Maria Sharapova around means we don't have to imagine what it would have been like if Anna Kournikova had, well, *won* occasionally.
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| parent )lol, funny you should offer that as an escape from politics. I'm boycotting the "Genocide Olympics", thank you. Darfur, Burma, and human rights in China. I'm not even buying Coke (a major sponsor) until after the Olympics. No, I'm not trying to sound like a saint -- my Chinese-born girlfriend who disagrees with my view keeps taunting me by asking why I don't stop buying ALL Chinese-made products, knowing that I won't make that sacrifice. But I just feel like doing something is better than doing nothing.
And yes, I know about the whole "constructive engagement" argument (and remember the same basic argument from the 1980s debate over South Africa) and other practical arguments, and I'm not belittling them. I just object to a nation with a government like China's getting the Olympics -- and the prestige/propaganda opportunity it represents -- and I want no part of it.
How's that for a response to your effort to be friendly and light-hearted? :)
I appreciate the thought/suggestion, though.
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| parent )Is there any proof that this theory actually works? Or is China just a special case where it doesn't? Constructive engagement and compassionate conservatism were two of the big reasons I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )Just ask Marcus Aurelius and vint.
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| parent )Oh, I get enough fighting on that subject with my girlfriend!
Anyway, China bashing comes in a lot of different flavors, and many who bash China on one thing (e.g., trade; outsourcing) are on the opposite side of the other bash-related issues. My biggest beef is Darfur, and I'm also concerned with Burma and lack of human rights and democracy in China.
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| parent )My biggest beef is Darfur and ... with Burma ...
but a broader issue of how China does biz in Africa, SE Asia + potentially S. America.
I'm reminded of a remark an acquaintence made to a Peruvian: "What, you'd rather be colonized by China?"
Hopefully it's not an either-or prop., but nature does sometimes abhor a vaccuum.
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| parent )Well, Darfur just has the misfortune of being in Sudan, which happens to have oil, which China is seeking globally like a junkie with a fast-building tolerance. China wants resources from wherever to fuel their economic growth, so yeah, it's a strategic, global pursuit.
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
| parent )Yes, I realize we support the Saudi regime, etc. But I think China is more willing to support atrocious regimes -- and to defend them against those who seek to stop the atrocities -- than most nations.
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| parent )Greece ended up doing a brilliant job with the 2004 Games--China seems to be heading for a far poorer performance, and they're actively engaging in censorship during the Games, so I expect to be directing some very harsh criticism based on their current conduct during the Games without having to delve into historical issues.
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| parent )Lookin forward to some Beijing posting, btw...
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| parent ). . .by finally posting my review of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons (I'm still tweaking the characters, but I've got enough data to make some useful observations)--then I'll post a preview diary on Monday or Tuesday. The big story for the first week--barring something violent and unexpected--will be Michael Phelps, so I'll talk a lot about him and post some links.
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| parent )by finally posting my review of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons
you bater!
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| parent )he's a master baiter indeed.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )yup, if a guy isn't a cunning linguist he ends up a master baiter.
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| parent ). . .baiting you would involve threatening to use the superpowers you people decided to grant me to stick that diary on the front page in all of its geeky glory. I *may* still do that--as Hank noted, I'm still a little annoyed about the whole thing.
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| parent )the mod du jour...
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| parent )and b*tch occasionally like Mac does.
It's a good life.
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| parent )just stick around and be funny
Hey, come ta' think of it...
Whadday mean "be funny"? Funny how? Funny like I'm a clown? Like I'm here to amuse you?
(yet another profanity warning)
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| parent )I used to think I was funny, but fortunately Harley explained to me that I'm not. Don't know how I could have been such a fool* all my life, but at least I know the truth now, thanks to "Tough Love Harley".
* pardon the pun
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| parent )but if he is for you, here's my 3 pt. guide for not taking too much umbrage at Harley's comments.
1st if you knew all the things he wanted to write but didn't, you'd give him some credit
2nd he + his prose are naturally terse and some of it isn't personal.
3rd, he's warm the next minute, so all it really takes is some patience.
just my 2c in the form of a 3 pt. guide.
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| parent )folk as diverse as vinteuil and BlaiseP (hows that for a spontaneously combustible duo)?
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| parent )if he's mainly focused on domestic politics.
.... and BBR welcome to the world of Elagabulas who will sometimes straightforwardly + patiently respond (even to timothy), and other times will confuse everyone with his own brand of tongue in cheek.
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| parent )he's mainly focused on domestic politics
How soon people forget http://theforvm.org/diary/wagster/assuming-whats-false#comment-101990
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| parent )and no I didn't forget our plushy thread either.
You noticed that a carebear was wearing a diaper.
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| parent )You noticed that a carebear was wearing a diaper.
Actually, I was tipped off by the relevant governmental underaged stuffed animal protection agency, who in turn was notified by Dick Cheney, who monitors Forvm.
(Hi Dick)
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| parent )But I'll be keeping my eye on you. Oh, yes.
It isn't a disagreement at all, actually. Obviously, anyone can try to influence this place in any manner whatsoever. My point was that if one shows up and proclaims their role as some sort of self-appointed leader, teacher, agent of change, etc., the chances of success are nil, and the reaction shouldn't come as a surprise.
Voluntary communities like this just informally acknowledge their leaders over time.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )doesn't have the zing of the last one!
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| parent )which I appreciate.
If you wanna complain about sigs, pick on MScott, who's elected to bother us w. some weird image, or vint., who's showin off his wavy locks + penetrating, yet soft, eyes.
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| parent )that my telling is what's classy. Nobody in their right mind believes you guys party that way.
What I like about MScott's avatar-sig is the way it looks down on anyone having the temerity to post a reply!
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )...I'm thinking vint. lifted one of those photos that come with a frame and cropped off the "8 x 10 Walnut Burl Model #810WB".
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )One simply has to add:
There are three deadly sins in here. An obsessive penchant to win every argument, overweaning pride in one's own smarts, and thin skin.
I suffer from two of the three with great regularity, so I know the pitfalls. But that third one. Ouch. That's the deadliest of the deadly.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Perhaps a case of over-inflated ego stretching the skin to breaking point?
At this point any attempt to puncture the ego could be dangerous, better to investigate how it is that natural leakage has so far failed to keep said ego in check.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )funny how the ol' Posting Rules Violation Sensor/Notifier device gets jammed sometimes, and apparently not randomly.
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| parent )Big Boys rules.
If you think you're still up to it after the reaction you got here, then why not try your hand at this place. The result will probably be the same but they would probably be a lot nicer about it.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Think of it as a little tough love. And the fact that we even bother is evidence that your contributions are valued ( or at the very least, noticed). It's more neighborly than antagonistic. And worth noting, I think.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )That's the one that gets folks flushed. In every sense of the word.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )No, It was addressing why so few conservatives engage here. It's more about the inherent assumption of illegitimacy that too many use as a framework to dismiss other's views.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )ok. Seems we are both concerned with rigid partisan mindsets and conduct (comments) precluding/limiting legitimate, more worthwhile discussion/debate here. [edit: Actually, I don't know if you're still concerned about it or if you've settled into acceptance of it, but it seems that at least we both would prefer it weren't so]
Again, I'm not saying everyone here is at the extreme, but it seems like a sizable portion just ain't lookin' for what I'm lookin' for.
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| parent )...I'm not much concerned about it anymore.
I used to care, and tried for a period to lead by example, as did others from both sides, but it was like being a handful of sober guys at a alcoholics convention. If the community as whole doesn't want to change, or will allow a loud minority to pee in the punchbowl, it isn't going to change no matter how much you implore them to see how the punch is tasting.
Now? I don’t care over much, and I don't try very hard. Fool's errand and all that.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )yup. understandable.
In my blogosphere travels I've come across several individuals who seem genuinely interest in and capable of the type and quality of discussion/debate I'm seeking (and that I think is better for the nation and the world, however grandiose that may sound). Just to mention a few and characterize their general views relative to mine in short form:
- one is to the left of me on Defense/war and economics.
- one is to the right of me on fiscal policy (essentially a Libertarian on spending) and is also more of a tax-cutter (so-called) fiscal conservative.
- one is a self-described libertarian, to the right of me on fiscal policy, to the left of me on Defense/war.
- one is a deeply religious Christian who is way to the right of me on social issues and who is to the left of me on economics (trade; fiscal policy)
What they all have in common is that they are both capable and willing to engage in genuine, substantive, logical discussion/debate, to actually listen to opposing arguments and questions, to actually stop and think about them, and to respond directly and rationally to them, as opposed to just responding reflexively per some partisan/ideological playbook (either deliberately to support one "side" or obliviously due to overwhelming partisan bias) with talking points, straw men, non sequiturs, evasiveness, etc.
I may at some point create a community blog and limit participation to those who are seeking what those folks and I (and apparently you) are seeking, and who will contribute accordingly. But for now I've got to catch up on work stuff that has slipped a bit due to excessive blogging over the last couple of weeks.
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| parent )To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )OK. So have the last word.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )And thanks to your lightning-fast correction, MNBP, I can't even correct the durn thing. Sorry. Darn.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Miss Nit-Bitchy Pick?
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| parent )Good eye!
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. So