Wow, Obama is just as experienced as McCain (or MORE)! Who Knew?!
This just in from Newsweek: Obama may have as much relevant experience for the presidency as McCain, or perhaps even more! This insight comes courtesy of “Special Guest Columnist” Alan Ehrenhalt in his column http://www.newsweek.com/id/142892
Are You Experienced?
Why a U.S. senator might not trump a state legislator
McCain is 71 years old, graduated from the naval academy (albeit did poorly academically) and had a military career including combat and some very testing experiences (to say the least), then briefly commanded a training squadron, and soon after served as a congressman for 4 years, then a senator for the past 21 years, dealing with national security and military issues through all sorts of challenging times (the Cold War, post-Cold War uncertainties and opportunities/threats, the Gulf War, Iraq War, etc., etc.) as well as all sorts of major domestic issues (fiscal issues/choices/battles, campaign finance reform, immigration, the environment, telecommunications industry problems, reconcilition with Vietnam, etc., etc.).
Obama is 46 years old, has 8 years as a state senator and 3 ½ years as a U.S. senator, half of which he has spent mostly running for the presidency. Thus he has almost no experience at the national level grappling with international and national issues (and with the key players and processes involved in decisions on such issues), as well as having no executive experience. Almost no experience with national security, foreign policy or military issues (reminder: we are currently fighting two wars plus the ongoing general “global war on terror”). Almost no experience with national domestic issues, except insofar as his Illinois experience provides some insight into a given issue as it applies to the entire nation. He’s basically a state senator with about 2 years experience in national politics plus 1 ½ years largely as an absentee senator out on the campaign trail.
No comparison, right? Right. No one is going to imply an equivalence of the two, and assert that Obama may very well have as much or more relevant experience for the presidency, right? Wrong.
First, Ehrenhalt seeks to disarm us, to separate ourselves from our common sense reaction to his very counterintuitive assertion. Is he actually going to argue that McCain does not have more relevant experience for the presidency than Obama? Um, no, of course he’s not going to argue that, or, well, “not exactly”.
We are in the opening days of a presidential campaign that pits youth against age, the virtues of experience against the freshness and riskiness of the new arrival.I'm not here to refute all of that: John McCain is 25 years older than Barack Obama, and he always will be. But here's something I bet you didn't know: If Obama becomes president, he will have spent more time serving as a state legislator (eight years) than anyone who has occupied the White House since Abraham Lincoln.
You're thinking that's kind of irrelevant. John McCain has been a member of the U.S. Senate since 1986; do I really mean to suggest that Obama's eight years in the Illinois Senate (not the most august deliberative body, as anyone who has seen it will attest) provide the same preparation for the presidency? Well, not exactly.
Um, so what the heck is the point of his column? That the difference in relevant experience is not substantial, or not as great as we think it is, or that we just don’t have any way of knowing? Well, exactly, or sort of, or something. But at least his practical advice is clear: forget about experience when choosing for whom to vote.
for a smart, curious and hard-working young legislator—for a Barack Obama in the Illinois Senate-can we be so sure that the skill set picked up over eight years in a state Capitol is inferior as presidential preparation to two decades in the pompous, cordoned-off environment of the U.S. Senate? I seriously doubt it.[skip]
As for the fall campaign, I am not urging anyone to vote for Obama, or against McCain, on the issue of experience. What I am suggesting is that experience itself is a slippery commodity to measure—that there is no easy way to guess what sort of political career is ideal for a president—and that we would all be better off just listening to what the candidates say and how they say it, and spending a little time looking into what sort of people they are.
Experience certainly shouldn't be the only consideration in choosing for whom to vote, nor does it ensure an effective presidency, let alone that any effectiveness will be in one's desired direction. But, no offense, Mr. Ehrenhalt, but under no circumstances am I going to pretend that experience doesn't matter, or assume that I just have no way of knowing what type and level of experience is relevant, and I'm certainly not going to think like that (and vote accordingly) while we are dealing with enormous national security issues (fighting two wars, facing the ongoing threat of terrorism, a potentially nuclear Iran, a probably nuclear North Korea, a China growing in power, a menacing Russia, etc.) and very serious domestic policy problems/issues as well.
Newsweek, the official weekly newsletter of Obama '08.
(Cross-posted at SwordsCrossed.org)
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- Brooks and B Rational's blog
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claims he's computer illiterate. Though a spokesman of his claims "he's aware of the internet."
Jesus Christ on a bicycle, it's 2008. Who the hell would vote for this guy, except out of spite?
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| parent )Knowing all he knows, he *still* supports Bush foreign & economic policies that most people now agree are unrealistic, irresponsible, naive and destructive to the country & its interests.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)at least before he decided he needed the Bush fundraising machine.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )Not looking good.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )unlike The Saint. I know, I know, off-topic; worthy of a separate diary, though. Which is forthcoming. %^>
EDIT: Wow, this rounded up the usual suspects, plus some not-so-usual. Not one of them addressing Obama's "damn pesky Republican 527s" flip-flop, though all seem loaded for big game. Definitely diary material.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )That's the problem with trotting out a demonstrably false statement, in this case a whopper of humorous dimensions. Folks are likely to call you on it.
Cuz if you genuinely believe Iron John has 'held true' on public financing? Well. That Fox News good, cousin. I'm surprised you'd even think to go there.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )again. You should distill and bottle that shtick, if you haven't already. Think how it could work in today's down economy:
"Ms. Checkoutress, you miscalculated the California VAT on my larks' tongues in aspic and that '55 Chapeau Gauloises; therefore, my purchases are free. I will not discuss the subject with you, as I must hie off to a cast party that will feature a salad bar catered by Wolfgang Puck."
There's a discussion of the facts below; you're welcome to join in, but substance-free posts or those along the lines of "Everybody knows that this is nowhere" will get shorty shrift.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )That would be the discussion where you turned tail the moment Gabriel started offering, you know, facts. And while it was nice of M. Scott to pick up the slack, Gabriel's points remain unaddressed, and were certainly not refuted.
Which brings us back to your embarrassing early statement re McCain's dedication to campaign financing. Good for a giggle. But in fairness, not knee-slapping in the manner of the far more entertaining constitution/d of c confusion.
Ahh. Constitution, D of C. Good times.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )which I should have read before indulging in zinging you.
As for "turning tail" etc., typical of you. I'm here, so what's your point? Comparison to your "Run away! Run away!" response to pointed questions on the Scalia dissent you now want to flagellate yourself with?
Finally, what do you mean by the "D of C" abbreviation you used twice? I've heard reference to a medical term used in early-stage abortions, but I don't see how it fits in here. Please explain.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I have no idea what D of C means. It was meant to be something else but as mentioned many times previously spelling and grammar count when it comes to snark, so the snark in question has failed and is no longer operative.
As for the rest of it, it still seems to me that Gabriel made some good points re McCain's finance hokey/pokey that remain unaddressed.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )there.
I'll lay out the argument:
1. McCain said he would use public funding for the general election campaign.
2. Obama said ("pledged" is the word used in the MSM) that he would use public funding in the general if McCain did.
3. McCain is using public funding in the general.
4. Obama has decided not to use public funding, meaning he broke his commitment, pledge or whatever. AFAICT (the coverage is obscure on this) his justification for doing so is that McCain is being backed by ads from Republican 527s and so is somehow cheating on the public funding pledge. To me that rings hollow because so far Democrat 527s have significantly outspent Republican ones, as they historically do, and Obama himself has already benefited from their ads.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )did McSame definitively announce that he would be restricting himself to public funding in the general? Timing is everything.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Obama is not using that as the reason for going back on his pledge to use public financing if McCain did; he's using the bogus 527 argument instead AFAICT. So timing is a non-issue in this context.
I think we all know what's going on here: Obama has raised way more money than he thought was possible, and believes he can keep the torrent of funds going through the general. So he wants to use that cash without restriction; he knows that the media will go easy on him, and believes the money advantage will far outweigh whatever temporary negative press he gets over this. Let's just be real here, OK? The guy's a politician who wants badly to be President, so not everything he does needs to be spun into legitimacy.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )and he changes his mind and his stance, how refreshing. More please.
Me, I would happily ban all paid advertising on the teevee (which is where 90% of political contributions raised goes) while legislating that candidates receive equal free time as a public service from the networks/cable news to expound at length on their suitability for office. Say 3 or 4 one hour prime time slots a week? or maybe a C-SPAN like political channel?
McSame might have had more of a leg to stand on if he had declared his intention before Obama made his decision, but doing so immediately afterward and given their respective circumstances which were well known and well predicted earns him no profile in courage award in my book.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Hm, not a label I'm familiar with. Let's see...hat...smokes...ashes...ash hat....
Oh. Well. My...hat is off to you, sir. An almost Pynchonesque ability to hide the profane within the recondite. :)
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )best rock group name ever IMHO; plus the larks' tongues bit was of course a tip of the chateau to the Moody Blues. Not to be confused with the Pythonesque (that's what you meant, right?) lark's vomit skit.
Speaking of crematoria, where's pumpkin ash these days? I miss him.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )before scurrilous pet names. Just goes to show how pottyminded I am. :)
Lark's Tongue is King Crimson (not to mention tasty gelled in savory aspic) and I got as far as "red? blue? nahhh?" before moving on to ashhat. Haven't seen PA in awhile.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )McCain's danced the funky chicken thru the financing laws during primary season to such an extent that he may actually be guilty of illegality. At the very least, let's just say he was, uhm, 'creative' when it came to financing.
Unless you have a different definition of 'true.' That's possible, I guess.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )in another war, so it's OK, apparently.
Seems to be the theme:
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/wapos_richard_cohen_mccains_fl.php
And can anyone tell me why getting captured and tortured makes a whit of difference in suitability for being president?
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| parent )for McCain? (TPM, not you.)
Good one.
You're going to have to answer your last question for yourself.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )it doesn't.
And complaining? He's just pointing it out. It's in a newspaper, not in his imagination.
Generous of you to rule out anyone else answering this question, though I'm kinda sure generosity wasn't your aim.
So, what's so great about a guy getting captured and tortured? Sorry it happened to him, but really, why should anyone care about this in relation to the election?
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| parent )you would see that experience, and it's meaning or lack thereof in terms of presidential mettle, is in the eye of the beholder. Thus my "you'll have to answer the question for yourself" statement. I thought that was obvious but hey, I don't mind explaining stuff to you because I'm, well, generous. Safe to say no one else feels ruled out of anything, though.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )point about the beholder's eye.
I'd still say pointing out an editorial in a major newspaper as being wacky in regards to "give him a break - he was tortured!" isn't unfair. Nor is it complaining. It's pointing out an obvious stupidity that doesn't bear the slightest intelligent scrutiny... i.e., McCain had a horrible experience 40 years ago... GIVE HIM A BREAK!
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| parent )In fact, I agree with your premise. Some people might say that McCain's ability to withstand torture shows a strength of spirit (I think it does) that would carry through in a determination to choose a principled course in politics and stick to it through thick or thin (I don't believe his career shows he's done that).
The beholder's eye thing could loosely be analogized to a job interview or college application, where the decision maker attempts to evaluate how unrelated life experiences might make the applicant more likely to succeed in the work or college environment. These decisions amount to WAGs, but at lease the interviewer has the experience of making these decisions many times before and seeing the results. The electorate either has no such experience (young voters) or doesn't see able to use it (the rest of us).
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I have an issue with the term 'complaining' being bandied about. As if pointing out something factual is complaining.
It isn't complaining or 'going after' someone when something is pointed out. As in this case, or in the case of Bobby Jindal's Scooby-Doo adventure that came up a couple weeks ago, for instance.
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| parent )since I was agreeing with you that that particular puff piece went overboard in favor of McCain, but pointing out that Obama has been the press darling virtually since he announced. That's why the occasional over the top Mccain promo stands out; it's unusual. Doesn't mean the piece itself makes sense or isn't kissing a$$.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )You wouldn't expect the first fifteen or so decisions to be good ones. And then suddenly you're quite old.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I wish I could blame "them", but I've met the enemy and he is me. Miscalculations include believing that %*&$er Carter to the point of helping campaign for him, and thinking Gerald Ford would be a statesman. Here's hoping more than 50% of the electorate is smarter than me.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )You are being facetious and snarky, right?
;)
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent )Eye of the beholder, I suppose.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Obama didn't flip flop but McCain's flip flop on public financing was even worse, since he signed a loan agreement with a bank based on his taking public money in the primaries. Isn't this like lying in your mortgage application?
At best they cancel each other out which is why I thought you were joking when you wrote about McCain that "so far he's held true on public campaign financing".
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent )McCain qualified for matching funds but he didn't exercise that option, and he didn't make pledges one way or the other, except to say that he would accept matching funds in the general. Obama was clearly stated that he would accept
public financing for this campaign in the general.
In the primaries, McCain promised to accept matching funds if his campaign faltered, and that's how the loans were structured. The collateral was against "incoming but unprocessed contributions" (cite). I don't see how Obama's broken pledge is equivalent to a loan agreement.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )McCain explicitly pledged on legal documents associated with his candidacy to take public funding.
IOKIYAR, of course.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )all of the particulars - at least that's what the bank director who oversaw the loan told the Post when this issue first came up. The DNC's filed a lawsuit (shock and awe)to raise the visibility of this as a campaign issue - we'll see what develops.
Meantime Obama's been a longtime proponent of public campaign financing because of the graft and influence-peddling private contributions it invites, and agreed to use public funds in the general if McCain did as well. But now that he has beaucoup bucks in the bank, he's decided that he should be an exception to his own rule - thus the "sainthood" handle.
I think that's pretty significant, along the lines of a US Senator running "against Washington." And the reason he gave, so-called "private electioneering" by Republican 527s, is patently bogus; the Dems have used and abused the 527 system far more than the republicans have, spending Millions on Hillary ads alone.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )No one here is pretending that Obama didn't change his mind, tho' I'd suggest that with 90 percent of his doners giving less than a 100 bucks, he's doing a better job of public financing than the system did. And given the GOP's usual advantage when it comes to cash on hand -- money outside the public financing system, natch -- I understand your desire to see the Dems remain pure and at a financial disadvantage in the fall election. The hypocrisy is also amusing.
But the weird attempt to defend McCain in this is just sad. I'm surprised to see you spout warmed-over, and weakly founded talking points. That's not usually your way.
Hey. I guess this means the election campaign has truly begun!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )was based on collateral that did not exist. I don't know what value the bank gave to that collateral but I do know that McCain signed a piece of paper based on his getting public financing in the primaries which he then ditched. So it's impossible to claim, as you did, that he did not flip flop on this.
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent )Namely, McCain's vastly improved fundraising potential once he went from a longshot for the nomination to having all but clinched the nomination. The bank knew this, and knew that sticking to public financing would only hurt his fundraising. Since the bank officials are not in the pay of Dr. Howie, and don't care where the money to repay the loan comes from, they went along with it. Again, alleging fraud in this context reflects ignorance or dishonesty in those doing so.
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| parent )That's a different thread. I asked about legal implications in the other thread and based on what you said I agree there appears to be no legal fraud.
But in this thread my point is different. Tomsyl claimed that McCain, unlike Obama, had not flip flopped on public financing and that much is clearly false. Both flip flopped. It's not a legal point, but a political one.
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent ). . .in this thread, and I addressed it. Since it's irrelevant as an issue except insofar as accusations of fraud are concerned, I take issue with your contention that you're not continuing that argument in this thread. Of course, if you agree now that the fraud accusations are bogus, the point is moot, as are any further mentions of collateral.
As for the flip-flop, McCain never publicly committed to take public financing--he kept the option open in case his campaign pancaked and he needed the funds. He didn't need them, so he didn't take the public funds. It wasn't a matter of principle. Obama stated flatly that he'd accept public financing in the general election if his opponent did. There's no ambiguity there. He has the right to make that decision, but it's a blatant flip-flop.
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| parent )reference was simply to point out that McCain signed a legal document committing to public financing. And of course he originally opted into the system, which means he very much publicly committed to taking the funds. You can read here:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0807/5544.html
about McCain publicly applying for public funds. He signed a legal document, sort of like the loan. And he required a waiver from the FEC not to take the public funds when he changed his mind. Of course he never got the formal 'waiver' from the FEC, since they don't have the quorum, so he may have broken electoral law. We can leave that for another day.
It's pretty clear he was for public financing when it suited him and against it when it didn't. Just like Obama. Both are flip floppers but only one raises legal questions (and I'm not referring to the bank but to the FEC).
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent )Most of which was raised online from small individual contributions as opposed to the more traditional large influence-peddling private contributions which public financing reforms were meant to counter.
Same objective different method. But it doesn't sound bite well so Obama takes a hit. No matter, this too will pass until the next faux outrage de jour.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Moi? I'm not outraged; I'm not even surprised. But I'm sure going to bring it up. Obama's been all preachy about the merits of public campaign financing since he got into the race; perhaps he never thought it would actually be his money that might be forfeit it he followed the principles he was espousing. He never said anything about private funding from small contributors being any form of exception to the rules he wanted adopted. You can confirm this by looking at mid- to late-2007 versions of his campaign website.
In the meantime, as I'm sure you know, Democrat 527s are outspending Republican ones about four to one, and in the past week Obama's been the beneficiary of two big attack ad buys by MoveOn and AFSCME. Little guys, huh? And a suggestion: see if you can calculate how much money various employees, affiliates and organizations associated with Archer Daniels Midland have given to big-time Farm Bill and ethanol supporter Sen. Obama. That way we can compare numbers.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )JFTR. Resume insensate spinning!! (This is like watching one of those braindead morning shows on Fox News. Are you the blonde or the blonde?)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )from MoveOn's own website (bolding just for you):
We're permanently shutting the doors on our 527, which has been inactive since 2005.
Meanwhile MoveOn continues to actively attack McCain, and they prominently promote a video of the "Alex" ad on their website with this blurb next to it:
John McCain is up on the air with TV ads in a bunch of key states and Obama isn't. There's a big vacuum to fill. Luckily, we've got a secret weapon. Our new Iraq ad is the most effective ad we've ever put together.
Here's a piece from a MoveOn press release dated February 1, promising to throw their weight (and Soros's money, presumably) behind Obama:
So again, what the %$&* are you talking about?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )You were talking out of your brain hole about Moveon and 527s. I assumed this occurred after they'd already shuttered their own and commented accordingly. Turns out it's been inactive since 2005. Now, if you're concerned about their ads generally, that's another subject. Once you figure out the difference, we shall continue.
But here's the best thing of all. For the first time in a very long time, Republicans are whining that they are being outspent by Democrats in a presidential election.
Heh. Cry me a river, bub.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Consider putting this on a 3x5 card and taping it to your monitor:
Read posts carefully before insulting the poster.
Now review my post that prompted your "braindead" statement (which I've again bolded for your reading comprehension):
Democrat 527s are outspending Republican ones about four to one, and in the past week Obama's been the beneficiary of two big attack ad buys by MoveOn and AFSCME
MoveOn is a 501, not a 527(I told you to look it up) , and AFSCME is a labor union. Instead of addressing the fact that MoveOn's big money is backing Obama and attacking McCain (the Alex attack ad - remember?), you started off on a tangent about an inactive 527 that was "just closed" and then call me braindead for not noting that.
Both of your engines are dead, you're trailing smoke, and you're about to hit the Pacific with a big splash. Any last words?
BTW, you still owe a response to my post no. 99974. Are you starting to realize that humble pie tastes even worse after you've thrown around comments like "braindead" and "thin-witted"?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )You can bold that 'and' all you want. It's still moderately sloppy writing, and as a result, I clearly and tragically misinterpreted it. I will live with the stigma of this error with as much grace and repose as I can muster. Honest I will.
Meanwhile, back at the thread...
You've been commenting in the Pompous Blowhard Mode for about a week now. Not sure what opened the floodgates. Did someone disrespect your intellect in the workplace? Whatever the case, I'm not sure this is the best place to work out the kinks. It's also getting boring. And *that* is the worst sin of all.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )(1) I am not a moderate, (2) I don't do "intellect", (3) I don't work and (4) I've written this way since, well, I started writing this way. Other than that, you're pretty close to spot-on. Thanks for the helpful and objective writing lesson, tho; perhaps you'll chime in with helpful style pointers from time to time.
Now that's out of the system, where were we? The air hockey puck is on your side of the centerline.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )is about to crash?
Congrats, Harley. All you need is to crash a few more over the next 40 years and then you too will be qualified to be president.
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| parent )Planes, smoke, crashing into the Pacific. It's like being stuck in a high school creative writing class. Woe is metaphor!!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )not good, either; just OK. But a robust OK.
Problem is, H thought the board was green, all systems were go and his phaser was set to "stun". He's busy choreographing his dance moves for when Hammer does "Can't Touch This" at the Denver Convention.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Harley is aware of the internet.
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| parent )Delphic, too. I'm off to ponder that.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Delphi is a doozy. A couple whiffs of those fumes and you too will be computer illiterate and blissfully unaware of the differences between Shiite and Sunni.
"Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran.."
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| parent )Is this one of those new car smell toluenic peptide flouroboracarbon warnings I've been hearing about?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )How come Pranky gets George Carlin and I get Lou Dobbs? I don't want Lou Dobbs!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )"Visit your local Delphi dealer today to test drive a 2009 Delphi Oracle..."
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| parent )ME:
(overweeningly)
GPS. The Meadowlands in New Jersey.
2009 DELPHI ORACLE:
Plotting course...course plotted. Begin at the beginning, Traveler. Your first step on the path to a larger world.
ME:
...
2009 DELPHI ORACLE:
You will meet pain where the Tiger claws at the Tank. Beware a man with one shoe. His squeegee will blind you to the road ahead! Ask not for whom the plaza tolls--it tolls for thee.
ME:
What the hell are you talking about?
2009 DELPHI ORACLE:
Would you like to hear about Windows Vista?
ME:
No, you expensive piece of $#!^ hanging from a ¢#%^#!@*. I want you to tell me how to get to the Meadowlands.
2009 DELPHI ORACLE:
riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
ME:
Oh yeah? Well let me ask you this. How much wood would a w---
2009 DELPHI ORACLE:
--ZOT!
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )-
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )If a major "independent" political organization halts its "independent expenditures" (in general or particular ads or particular other tactics and message) at the request of a candidate, what does that mean regarding its degree of independence? Does that mean that if a candidate doesn't request such a halt, he is giving a green light?
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| parent )One could say as much about McCain, who tends to pretend such ads are beyond his control. Obama has made it very clear he does not want this kind of support, and several have shuttered already as a result.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Actually, I didn't intend my question as a rhetorical question, although any degree of control by a candidate over a third party group, even if passive and by default, seems antithetical to "independence" of that group. There is still the question of degree, though, and what the implication is for various types of campaign finance regulations/systems.
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| parent )campaign? And that Obama's campaign has no idea what's in these ads until they actually air?
Yes, this is in fact a set-up question.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )...I do think that while there are like-minded people working in both offices, that there is no direct coordination between MO and Obama's campaign. Though of course the Obama campaign is perfectly free to put out a press release asking MO to do whatever it wants to, just as MO is perfectly free to adhere or not adhere to the Obama campaign's request.
I think that the Obama campaign has a good idea of what will be in the ads before they air, mainly because MO relies strongly on member input for its decisions, and it is inconceivable to me that no member of the Obama campaign is a member of MO -- and therefore privy to most of the decisionmaking.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Just want to clarify what you apparently are saying.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )And I think he's the blonde.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )You cited Moveon as one of the big bad Democratic 527s approximately 24 hours after they had closed up shop in keeping with Obama's wishes.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Also, you need to reread what I said, and look up MO's legal status. hint: there's two. Then you can go back to your "Doh!" insults.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )"Obama's been all preachy about the merits of public campaign financing..."
I know he changed his mind. But this has hardly been a cornerstone of his campaign. You're simply assuming it is in order to better pursue a pretty thin-witted line. Hey. If it's all you got, go for it. But I'm not sure this is going to turn the current tide all that much.
And remember. Every time a Republican complains about the other party's financial advantages? A brain cell loses its wings.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Both quotes sourced from On The Issues.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )That doesn't mean I don't agree with Obama's decision 100%.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I'm very much in favor of a system of mainly publicly-funded campaigns, on a voluntary basis (candidates can opt out), but made so attractive that candidates won't choose to opt out (i.e., removing any advantage from opting out). If anyone is interested, I've been having a conversation on this subject at http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/06/what-does-campa.html#comments (first time I've commented there. I'm "Brooks")
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| parent )In fact, McCain's falsehood on the subject actually rises to the level of criminal fraud, though the bank is unlikely to press.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )-
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )He cited the public financing as collateral for the loan, then didn't get the public financing. He did arrange for alternate funding, so the gap was closed, but had he not, the bank would certainly have had an ironclad civil case at least.
Our exchanges are getting unusually reality-disinterested; is the purpose to support Repub memes at the expense of Dem (or liberal) ones regardless of the facts on the ground, or is there something else going on? Because, um, it's bad.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )And if Queen Elizabeth had testicles, she'd be the King of England.
Your statement that McCain committed criminal--or even civil--fraud is false. By your own admission. Deal with it.
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| parent )By misrepresenting the real risk the bank may have priced the loan too low. There's no penalty for that? (Leave aside whether the bank wants to do something about it).
If I go to the bank and falsely claim assets I don't have and get a loan based on that, am I completely off the hook if I pay it back or can the bank (in principle at least) claim foul?
--This place is my vacation.
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| parent ). . .get a bank loan, using the fact that you own an option to buy a diamond worth five million dollars for two and a half million dollars as collateral for the loan. After getting the loan, you have good fortune and gain possession of diamonds worth ten million dollars, but the process of getting them forces you to surrender the option to buy. The bank is aware of this, and knows--based on your own records--that you are more able than ever to repay the loan. Have you committed fraud? More to the point--have the bank's interests been harmed in any way?
There's no fraud here--the only "real" issue here is McCain's ability to tell Dr. Howie to take a hike.
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| parent )In fact, McCain's falsehood on the subject actually rises to the level of criminal fraud.
How could you be confused about what the question was?
You made a pretty serious accusation, particularly since it's a felony to defraud a Federally insured bank, so I asked you for proof from an objective source. You gave me an argument instead, and downgraded the accusation from criminal to civil.
And you are complaining about me being "reality-disinterested and pursuing partisan memes.
Are you really going to brush off Obama's direct contradiction of his own campaign plank and his unambiguous commitment to take public campaign funds as a "Republican meme"? Because if that's your strategery for dealing with the issue, I'd just as soon know know.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I don't agree with public financing of Presidential campaigns, as the system is broken. Since Obama made an incorrect call about that early on, I was pleased to see him change his mind.
That said, none of these facts are in dispute. It is undisputed fact that McCain listed the public financing as collateral, and it is undisputed fact that said financing was not pursued. I am unfamiliar with the precise remedy for claiming that one has millions of dollars in collateral that one does not, but I am quite familiar with the common business practice of not particularly caring about falsehoods in the loan application if the repayment checks come through.
McCain gambled that his fundraising would be good enough to cover the gap, and he won. If he'd lost, he'd be on the hook. Since he won, there's no injured party, only a bank that unknowingly took on a risk that ended up not mattering.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )and you just said it again, stating that it "unknowingly took on a risk . . ." That is what I've been asking you to provide some evidence for, if you have it.
Here is what the bank's president told the Post:
Not conclusive, but certainly not the words of someone who was victimized. The only people raising a ruckus over this are the litigation-loving lawyers at the DNC. Even Obama is not using this as an excuse for his flip-flop AFAICT.
Are you starting to see how you might appear a bit partisan when you accuse McCain of a felony, while airily dismissing Obama's complete reversal as a minor course correction that you're glad he made?
(A little off point, but one accusation that hasn't been made yet, but should be, relates to John McCain's personal responsibility for the 527 system that Obama hypocritically referred to as the excuse for reneging on his pledge.)
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )signing a legal document that one has an item in collateral when one does not have it is cool.
In all honesty, I don't particularly care. McCain made a business decision to swap one item out for the other, and he was liquid enough to make it work. If the bank's happy, there's no injured party. It's no different than if I stole a bunch of your money, invested it, and returned it to you before you noticed. I mean, yeah, it's wrong, but who got hurt?
But let's be clear here -- Obama made a campaign promise and decided it wasn't reasonable to keep. McCain signed a legal document allowing him to borrow money based on the fact that he was going to accept public financing. One of these is something that every politician of every stripe is going to do at some point, and we have to decide if the promise was important or not. The other is kinda bigger, and hearing anyone imply that Obama's switch is either as large or larger than McCain's is just listening to absurdity.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )By the time McCain opted out, he had pretty much clinched the nomination and knew that he'd have enough funds to cover the loan without public financing. The issue--for those who were paying attention--was not fraud, but of Dr. Howie and his minions hoping to hamstring McCain with a technicality while Democrats kept the FEC without a quorum. Since McCain is not--occasional goofs aside--an idiot, he gave Dr. Howie the finger and went about his business. Whining about that is as legitimate--if futile and amusing to those observing the whiners--as any political dispute, but any accusations of fraud regarding this matter are based out of ignorance, dishonesty, or both.
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| parent )Like the bank, for example. Oddly enough, they don't seem to be complaining. Probably because the reason McCain didn't bother with public funding was that he had plenty of private fund raising to protect the banks interests, and--having a connection to the real world regarding these matters--the bank officials knew that filing a criminal fraud case would make them look like idiots even if they were inclined to do so.
Of course, if the Democrats weren't barricading new appointments to the FEC (preventing a quorum from existing), they might have been able to get a ruling that would have at least slapped McCain on the wrist as a real world alternative to making him do the perp walk. Sometimes it sucks to be a party of obstructionist idiots.
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| parent )... you mean backing out of public financing in the primaries after using the promise of public funds to secure a loan, then yes, The Maverick has "held true."
EDIT: What, everyone else's little partisan jabs merit a response, but not mine? I see how it is around here.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )impossible to reply in a way that would be worthy of . . . well, James Worthy, for one. Plus, I ran out of witlecisms by the time I got down this far. That's what you get for being first; next time, just throw in a "me2"-er like Harley and I'll vent spleen your way.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )... will get you everywhere, dear boy.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )... I find the talk of experience with regard to the Presidency a little fatuous, for two (pretty non-original) reasons. First, there's very little that one could do prior to the Presidency that really counts as relevant experience: governorships, in the sense of being atop a large bureaucratic structure; the very highest levels of the military (e.g. Eisenhower); certain Cabinet level positions, like State or Defense; ... and nothing else really comes to mind. Everything else--from having served in the military, to private sector experience, whatever--can make for good biography, but I'm not sure it counts as (relevant) experience. And as a tangential point: how much reason is there to think that 'experience', however it ends up being defined, is a good predictor of being a good President? There probably won't be much agreement about what constitutes being a good President, but it still seems like a question worth asking.
Second: it seems to me experience is not the same thing as 'stuff that's happened to you'; experience is what get when the stuff that's happened to you is digested--when, in others words, you derive from those things that happen to you principles on which to reason and to act, and maxims by which to judge particular cases. And, let's face it, there's no way to tell beforehand how quickly someone will derive those principles and maxims--to say nothing of the question of whether they derive the right ones. (That there's bound to be significant disagreement about what constitutes the right principles and maxims should go without saying.)
In sum: I take the talk about 'experience' to be on a par with talk about 'authenticity' or 'character'; I take it to be bunk.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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)makes a great deal more sense than the mind numbingly stupid article by Newsweek's "Special Guest Columnist”. I got the impression that state legislators are a personal fetish of the author, and I fail to see where a clear case was made for the parties to comb the 50 state houses for their national candidates.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )... to be do better than mind numbing stupidity. "Aim for the moon and miss," as the inspirational poster has it, "and you're still among the stars."
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )it was possible to make a much better argument against putting too much into experience than Newsweek offered.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Executive experience is one kind of work experience relevant to the presidency (mostly management experience through which management skills may have been developed, as well as insights into some national issues from one's more narrow perspective, e.g., one's state), but not the only kind. Experience taking and advocating positions on major national/international issues is another, as is experience that provides familiarity and insight into the dynamics and key players in national politics. A long-serving senator probably has a good amount of the latter types of relevant experience.
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| parent )... and ignores the second, which I think is the more substantial, entirely. Put bluntly, with respect to the case at hand, the fact that McCain's been in the Senate for a long, long time is, if we're being charitable, at best a first approximation of acumen in and facility with "taking and advocating positions on major national/international issues," or "insight into the dynamics and key players in national politics." Frankly, I don't see any reason--in McCain's case, or any one else's--to be that charitable.
Experience as such, I'd say, isn't a valuable criterion; it is, rather, instrumentally valuable as a potential source of good principles, maxims and the like. But since what we as an electorate take to be "good principles, maxims, etc." is a matter of persistent debate, appeal to experience--especially when understood in the sense of 'stuff that has happened to/around you'--isn't, and shouldn't be, persuasive. Moreover, appeals to experience (like those to authenticity, or to character), to the extent that they avoid those thorny questions of what constitutes good principles, maxims, etc., are mere sophisms, and are probably post hoc rationalizations of a position held for different reasons entirely.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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