Hillary Clinton is destroying the Democratic party
Oh wait, she's not -
Dear XXX,I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than I can ever possibly tell you.
On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.
I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.
When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who need a voice in the White House.
I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.
I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too important to do otherwise.
I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.
In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.
I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank you.
Sincerely,
Hillary Rodham Clinton
. . .
So despite the hysterical claims that she would fight to the convention, that she would sabotage the convention, that she would put together a Liebermanesque third party run, it turns out in the end that she will concede, she will support Obama, and she will help in the general election to get Democrats elected.
Let's start here by stopping the Nixon references, the validation of years of Republican BS, the character assassination and the high school level of discourse (at least from liberals, I expect conservatives to get rather desperate in a few months). Congratulations to Senator Clinton for a strong, well run campaign. Let's welcome her and her supporters to join forces with Presidential Candidate Barack Obama and his supporters and keep our eye on the real goal - a Democratic President, large Democratic pickups in the House and a veto proof majority in the Senate.
Emotions run high during campaigns, but a sign of wisdom is knowing when to give free reign to your passions and when to control them. The real opponents - John McCain, the retrograde Republicans and the Bush legacy - should be the focus now. Remember, the only thing worse than being a sore loser is being a sore winner.
--
I blame it all on the Internet
- HankP's blog
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There is a process of selecting a candidate by local
voting systems and allocated delegates, plus some top
up delegates from the party machine.
The convention meets and a candidate is chosen.
To follow this process - is to split the party and
lose the comming main election ?.
The 'de-facto' process put forward is that the AP
calls who is most popular/likely to win based upon
polling patterns and held delegates and then
everyone else is supposed to agree and pull out
before the convention ?.
To be honest I think Hilary is playing from a tight
corner, she is entitled to to go to the convention,
to plead her case to the delegates and make the usual
deals, its not like there has been no precedent in US
politics of last minute haggling, and the margin
of difference is not that big, what everyone seems to
be saying is that such a contest has no positive
outcome for the party, that a coronation ahead of a
show convention is the only viable choice in this
media age, that unity, false or otherwise, is needed
to keep the electorate on board.
On another note what percentage of US Presidents and
candidates have been killed in the last 230 years and
how does that compare with other countries ?.
last 230 years have been
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)if hillary were in a similar spot as lieberman in 2000, having to run for reelection in the senate the same year as running for president (slightly different, i know, lieberman was just for vp, not the primaries), how would her senate reelection have gone this year with what has transpired?
Would it have had any effect?
--~At times like these I am reminded of the immortal words of Socrates when he said...."I drank what?"
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)she won NY state
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| parent ). . .on how strong the Republican opposition was, since the primary would be over before any prominent Democrat could pull together a campaign to oppose her. If she had been up in 2008, Guiliani might have eschewed a presidential run and taken a shot at beating a distracted HRC in the Senate race--she probably would have either had to cave earlier to Obama or drop her Senate run: the dual drain on her energy, time, and (most of all) funding would have been hellish.
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| parent )I'm glad to see her do this and I'm still certain that I'll be getting a free Player's Handbook II from Scott, but...
The fast turn-around to concession and kumbaya is a strategic move. Rahm already came out saying you don't negotiate with the candidate -- which is wholly false, there's a long history of negotiating with the candidate.
But it cannot appear that she is negotiating or browbeating Obama to give her the veep slot. She and her advisers realize that Obama cannot look overpowered by her.
But if she steps down unilaterally here and gives him big support with no apparent strings attached, then Obama will be able to pick her as veep as a sign of graciousness and healing. And, since doing that is the smart move, and Obama's a smart guy, she can be confident that it will happen.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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)Obama, I think and hope, isn't dumb enough.
Nor do I think that's what she wants. The narrative arc of traveling from first wife to VP (always second) is all wrong.
She's just trying to score some markers for her supporters. Perhaps out of pure loyalty to them, or perhaps because she doesn't want people who she may tap again to have been burned.
Most likely, it's a combination of both motives.
--Of course not!
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| parent )Taking veep does allow her to cut Bill loose the next time there's a bimbo eruption, say 2009/2010.
Then, 6 years later Bill can still come back and support her campaign, while his philandering will no longer be a distraction. Supportive ex-husbands are a staple of Lifetime movies after all.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent )Listening to some of these responses is like people believing that actors behave in real life the way they do on talk shows.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ). . .I'd tell him to tell HRC that the VP spot on the ticket was hers. . .in exchange for a notarized statement from her that she will not run for the Presidency in 2012 under any circumstances. Call it anti-terrorism insurance.
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| parent )Sorry, mistake, make that Ed Rendell saying you can't negotiate.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent )I'm here fo ya', baby. I don't think y'all are in tune with what HankP is sayin':
For Obama to win in November you WILL need votes from the Hillaristas.
You know that and Hillary knows that.
So at some point down the road (if you indeed want a win in November) your hardline on Hillary WILL have to soften a bit. Don't take it personal-it's just business ...
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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)Somebody gets it. Is it that complicated? Isn't the anger in these responses proving exactly the point that I made and that you (alone) picked up on? This isn't rocket science, it's pretty simple addition and subtraction.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ). . .that you were saying much the same things when HRC was still throwing bombs and people here were getting ticked off about it. I miss Trickster and wish he would come back around here, but I'd say that part of the reason that he wasn't getting more traction here with his defenses of HRC even apart from the merits was that he had an established record of being a Carville-level (intensity and loyalty, not clout) defender of the Clintons, and his arguments were discounted accordingly by those who knew that and who didn't share his viewpoint. Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of history, yada yada yada.
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| parent )I thought people were overreacting and I still do. I only recall one real bomb that she threw, and I called her on it.
I guess I remember Trickster differently, as in his being blog raped when he said anything not negative bout Clinton.
Of course, you'll have your own problems with McCain, so enjoy the minor disarray while you can.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I guess you do remember him differently.
I remember making an off-hand comment to him that an article he was citing on health care was biased, and he asking for specifics, and me politely asking him to just reread it carefully (really, they were egregious), and he announcing nothing wrong, and then me taking several hours to go through the article line-by-line, citing many outside sources, and he... not even commenting.
I remember repeatedly pointing out factual inaccuracies in his posts in as polite and neutral a fashion as I could (which admittedly was not always as polite and neutral as one would desire, but I honestly tried hard), then watching him berate other posters here for getting some detail wrong.
I remember him trashing the Forvm at Talk Left, as if the entire blog were one monolithic face of Clinton hatred.
I remember seeing him at MyDD in a diary titled something along the lines of "Obama is the George Wallace of the left" and watching him... not critique the diary, but rather critique a pro-Obama poster in the comments. I specifically pointed that out to him, in my one and only comment on that blog, and he replied that although he wouldn't use the analogy the diary made a lot of good points... and then mischaracterized and mindread a few other things I'd said for good measure. This is a diary that was so bad it was deleted and the diarist banned from MyDD.
The issue wasn't him saying "anything not negative bout Clinton" as you ought to know. It was his selective attacks on Obama that generated backlash from Obama supporters. Not always fair backlash... but then, his attacks weren't always fair either. C'est la vie. I feel bad about some of the criticism he took, but "blog raped" is just laughably ridiculous.
I have nothing against him personally, I really don't, but I wouldn't interact with him if he were still here on primary-related matters.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )was that he was getting raked over the coals for saying milder things about Obama than other commenters were saying about Clinton. I could be misremembering though.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )to put it.
For context, I'd add that some of his primary-related work also met with appreciation from some posters, including the odd Obama supporter.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )Since the MyDD diary I mention was deleted along with all comments, and rereading my remark I realize it leaves a lot to the imagination, I want to clarify that I don't think Trickster was in any way displaying or endorsing racism -- his agreement, IIRC, was with the characterization of the Obama campaign as having "played the race card."
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )Maybe Harley shoulda tried to kiss him first.
Trickster got the response he did because he was advocating that Hillary lawyer her way to the nomination in the event she didn't have the delegates. That, and he was just being Trickster.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )I'm not going to hunt down the diaries and re-read the threads, but as I recall it was more than just one comment or thread or diary that he got repeatedly smacked around on.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ). . .directed at Trickster, but I will say that some of the arguments that the language was responding to were, um, rather insulting to the intelligence of the reader. Of course, many of the same people who were reacting rudely to it during this election campaign were, I suspect, quietly (or not so quietly) cheering those same arguments on during the summer and fall of 1998 when Team Bubba was in barricade mode. . .so my sympathy for their outrage is limited.
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| parent ). . .he was also (correctly) pointing out that the junior Senator from Illinois was engaging in his share of hardball politics without being excoriated for it by the media. Of course, having an established record longer than the index of Wilt Chamberlain's little black book tends to make people look on your misdeeds a tad more harshly than those of the local teenage pickpocket's.
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| parent )I do remember that, and Trick had some fair points, but when Mark Penn kept inserting "cocaine" into his comments about Obama, the Trickman was on shaky ground and spinning like a top.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent ). . .but I'm thinking that things like this will have most of the loudest complainers about McCain coming home to pull the R lever with force, if not with joy in their hearts.
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| parent )Almost all of the bills, committee records, and votes from the Illinois senate are online. Anyone who is interested can look into the legislation for themselves. (This also came up in Obama's debate against Keyes, also online.)
If you're pro-life, you should prefer McCain regardless, of course, but Obama is nowhere near the monster on abortion that conservatives are trying to make him out to be.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent ). . .but if it's true that Illinois law permits babies who survive abortion attempts to be allowed to die without consequences--and that Obama opposed a law that would end that practice--he's gone beyond the pale on that issue for me, and he certainly can't expect pro-lifers to tolerate it.
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| parent )even saying that Obama's answer here is 100% "accurate" because there were many abortion-related bills and it's unclear exactly what is being discussed, but here's a start, from the debate I mentioned:
Like I said, the legislative record is almost entirely online. I keep meaning to write it all up but haven't had a chance to yet... sorry. But you can dig and satisfy yourself. I also wanna expand my prior point to say that even if you are pro-choice but sympathetic to pro-life you probably prefer McCain on the issue of abortion.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )I doubt it will make much of a difference, people who get worked up over abortion are pretty reliable Republican votes.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Turnout will be important, and this sort of thing will diminish the threat of religious conservatives taking Voting Day off out of spite. The main demographic McCain is probably worried about is the single issue anti illegal immigration vote--and that one will be a real concern if he doesn't mollify them or if a Tancredo wannabe decides to run third party.
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| parent )has there been an election since 1976 where large numbers of conservatives, especially religious conservatives, sat it out? People talk about it, and some crazy pastors predict it if they don't get their way, but I don't recall it actually happening. I'm pretty sure Democrats have more concerns about turnout in most elections rather than Republicans.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I'm just doing my part to ruthlessly crush the hopes of certain parties here and elsewhere who have been crowing about how *this* will be the election where the religious conservatives cut off their nose to spite their face, in preparation to listening to their lamentations on Election Night.
Hey, everyone has to have a hobby. :-)
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| parent )you could go around saying that this is finally the year for the Libertarian Party.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ). . .tend to resemble Charles Lindbergh's circa 1938 will not be getting my vote any time soon.
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| parent )I thought Lindbergh wanted us to join the war, just on a different side : )
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent ). . .that's not quite fair--he was a racist (and more specifically an anti-Semite), but I'm fairly certain that he wasn't really a Nazi sympathizer.* After Pearl Harbor, he went out of his way to serve his nation even after FDR--understandably--chose not to accept his offer to reactivate his commission. Still, he was clearly wrong on any number of levels, and it was one of FDR's greatest challenges to work around the mindset that Lindbergh represented in the American electorate well enough to let England survive until the US entered the war.
* with the usual caveats, Lindbergh's wiki page makes for interesting reading.
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| parent )Definitely not fair!
But I think he had Nazi sympathies prior to us being at war with them.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent ). . .that he was willing to overlook some of the warts while seeing common interests with the Nazis (which, sadly, included a strong belief in white supremacy). Sadly, that was true for much of Western Europe and more than a few in the US in the 1930s. The Kennedys tend to get a bit twitchy when people bring up what Papa Joe was up to as Ambassador to England in the late 30's, to cite a notorious example.
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| parent )Yah -- it's scary to think what might've happened had Hitler been able to squeeze a truce out of the UK in 1940.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent )It has been brought to my attention that Senator Clinton is 'suspending' her campaign and reserving the right to put her name into nomination so that she may continue to raise money according to Fed guidelines in order to pay off her campaign debt. Better to hear that from the Clinton campaign than Chuck Todd. But it's worth noting that her motives may not be as nefarious as I always assume.
The pop vote crap was still a graceless falsehood that will dog the Dems for longer than it should, however.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)with the last few months of her campaign?
I hope she will prove an asset to our chances in November going forward. Getting her supporters on board would be a huge help. Yes, Obama needs to reach out to them, and he is, but of course Hillary has more influence with them.
Not sure what the point of this diary is, honestly -- she just now announced she was planning to suspend her campaign (after he had already clinched the nomination), and I haven't noticed a lot of "sore winner" posts since then. Of course people are going to respond to your diary because you seem to imply that the past attacks on Clinton were necessarily invalid due to her actions here, which doesn't follow -- some were, some weren't, but we could distinguish at the time just fine.
I agree that it is best to put the primary behind us to the extent possible (RNC attack ads against Obama quoting Clinton already illustrate that we won't be able to ignore it) and to join together to help Dems win in November. The challenge is tougher now than it needed to be, but luckily we have a strong nominee with a solid platform and the country is tired of Republican failure.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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)Rah rah rah. Oh, by the way, if, in a fit of unwisdom, you are compelled to offer any further critiques of the Clintons, please shut up until after November.
Gee, and I thought it was the Republicans who were supposed to be the authoritarians.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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)you mixed up persuading people and ordering people somewhere along the line, which explains a lot.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )‘hysterical claims’, ‘character assassination and the high school level of discourse’, ‘a sign of wisdom is knowing when to give free reign to your passions and when to control them’, ‘the only thing worse than being a sore loser is being a sore winner’ is persuasion? Like Harley I find it bullying and rather insulting to those who had real problems with Clinton. And while by no means do I have anything against bullying or insulting Harley and those that largely agree with him per se, I just know that if Bird Dog, Scott, Steve, etc. wrote a similarly constructed diary aimed at conservatives they disagreed with, and I had a dog in the fight, I’d tell them where to stuff it.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )to hear the very person that I've modeled my online discourse after criticize me like that, it cuts me to the quick.
Insulting I can see (though I'd call it acerbic), but bullying? To bully someone you have to have some threat, what in the world do I have to threaten with? That I'll call them names? That I won't invite them to the kool kidz after election party?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )to intimidate, and you can intimidate through repeated insults.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )if this were a bunch of high school kids, maybe. I think people here are a little tougher than you give them credit for. BTW, I look forward to your discussions with Scott about insults.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )...a lot of people have problems with everyone. Most people if they want, (and a lot do want), can find a problem with anyone and beat it into a shrill & screaming blade of deceit and libel.
OK, you have problems with Clinton...big deal, so? You can have problems with anybody if you look hard enough...and with Clinton you don't have to even look that hard.
That's a given....with anyone, but the Obamaites seem to live on celestial cream cheese while we, first Edwards supporters, then Clinton people, are treated like we eat dog doo-doo in the street for the sheer joy and taste of it.
Obama may be fine, I may even eventually make some peace with Michelle, but the the Barack supporters...they are often insufferable.
And they are Obama's biggest liability also.
I think that's what Hank was sayin`
Traveller
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| parent )Yeah, that picture will inspire reasoned discussion.
--Steven Palmer Peterson
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| parent )with the picture? Sums it up nicely ... :)
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )....but better looking, that's me.
Dazzling me be....(hee, hee, hee)
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )...I shot it last night and entered it into the Canon DSLR Challenge today...it is growing on me....the Dada-ist Absurdity, the Hopper-esque Alienation blended with Photographic Realism.
Por Que, No?
I realize I have been remiss, but busy, in not getting to all my new China and Philippine images...but I want a complete galley for each posting. In time.
Maybe Better Seen Here:
http://www.pbase.com/cslr_challenge/image/98200152
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )is that you? Or just a person who lives at that ...uhm ... address?
Edit: Snark 2
You know that sofa is actually supposed to go lengthwise ...! :)
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )"How Obama Plans To Steal The Election Using Pixie Dust and Illegal Aliens From New Zealand" ]:-)
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| parent )the followers are always the worst. However, I didn't want people to start trashing Obama either. How about we stick to trashing McCain?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Bitter Democrat: Obama should have had it won! Those evil Republicans and their surrogates broadcast all those ads and stole it from him.
Republican: Um, Hillary and her crowd brought up all that stuff long before the Republicans did, you know.
Bitter Democrat: LYING RACIST! It was that SOB Rove--I know it was. . .
["Circle of Life" begins playing in the background as the "discussion" continues]
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| parent )if Obama fails to carry working class whites in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin I can guarantee the bitter democratic talking point will be how the Republicans played on the racial anxieties of this cracker country.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Hillary Clinton has spent the last month lying to her supporters about popular vote totals, and by doing so, has created an enraged base who, at the moment, insist they will not vote for the Democratic nominee. That's not a hysterical claim, it's a fact.
Hillary Clinton, in her lovely statement, announced her support for Obama's candidacy. She did not, and will not, use the word 'endorse.' There's a semantic difference.
And just this morning? Senator Clinton announced she is reserving the right to have her name put in nomination at the convention. She has not yet decided whether or not she will release her delegates. She is not 'ending' her campaign, she is 'suspending' it.
And if you think that's just bitter parsing? You, my friend, don't know Clinton.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Rahm Emmanuel has endorsed Obama.
Ed Rendell is quoted saying she can't negotiate for the VP position.
Hilary Rosen rejects being a bargaining chip.
The longer Hillary Clinton holds out the less relevant she shall become. Therefore there is no reason not to be gracious.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )But if logic had anything to do with it, she would not have run the campaign she did for the last month. Hey. I'm more than happy to be hopeful. We need every one of those Clinton supporters.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )can you let go of the Clinton hate to benefit Obama, or does it feel too good to trash her even though it hurts Obama in the general? Like I said, pay attention to what Obama is saying, he's giving you a rather obvious hint.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Give it sometime when faced with outside opposition the choice will become quite stark.. She and her husband have some fences to mend as does the Obama Campaign. It will be interesting to see if the clintons are going to try and be team players or work for subtle defeat of the dem... I for one think they realize that they have little choice because a loss for him will in part be blamed on her. The math should have made them suspend along time ago... She would still in many ways be as close without the baggage of the campaign almost making her kryptonite to an 2012 run should he somehow fail in the General. Still McCain speech and stage presents seems to be a net negative. With right track wrong track numbers I would be shocked with an Obama loss.
Anyone have an idea on who the VP picks will be and the impact they will have?
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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)Well, yeah, but only by the people who supported him in the first place. Bear in mind that a large proportion of Hillary supporters are firmly convinced that Obama was a priori unelectable. It's not like they're going to change their minds and blame Hillary; they'll just launch into a chorus of I-told-you-so's.
I think the Democrats, specifically Bill and Hillary Clinton, may actually have found the one way they could conceivably lose the White House this year: create a deeply personal divide in the Party base. I still think Obama is the strong favorite, but a month ago I would have rated him the prohibitive favorite.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Her hard core base is much smaller than 50%. So I see the blame being greater in regards to an 2012 run.. I also agree that she has done some damage but am ambivalent on the longterm effect. Those on this board or any political blog are much more tuned in than 99% of the public. I don't see the impact of the primaries having the impact we think we see now as being the same in three months...
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )Link
and this:
Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)if only more of his supporters would get the rather large and conspicuous hint he's dropping here. Being gracious in victory is a much better approach than being vindictive and continuing to bring up differences.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Maybe you missed this, but the hysterical claims that she would fight to the convention were coming from the Hillary campaign. You're acting like those of us who take McAuliffe and Ickes at their word are being paranoid or unfair in some way. I have never accused Hillary of anything other than what she manifestly was doing, on the basis of her own words and the words of her inner circle.
I hope she follows through on the promise to get behind Obama, but I also believe that at least some of the damage is irreversible at this point. Stop by hillaryis44.com sometime.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)Anyone who ever takes McAuliffe or Ickes at their word…
…let's just say, "paranoid" isn't the word that jumps to mind.
;-)
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent ). . .Including That One In Brooklyn" would fit better.
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| parent )...by a gang of her supporters yesterday. LINK
McAuliffe introduced her as the "next President of the United States" before her speech on Tuesday.
IMO, there was quite enough evidence to make an hysterical claim or two regarding Clinton's desire to take it to the convention.
Hank's larger point about backing off the Clinton attacks is correct but he seems to have selective amnesia about the last few days/weeks.
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )But if you think about it, "next President of the United States" fits her well. She'll perennially be considered the likely candidate so she'll always be thought of as the 'next' (after who actually *is* -- like Ted Kennedy was for several election cycles). Sort of like the 'next big thing' often never turns out to be a big thing.
May she always be the 'next President of the United States'...
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )True enough. Though I wonder. Given the rapid rate that culture and politics and just about everything else evolves these days, I'm not sure we'll see a President-in-Waiting like Teddy for more than one election cycle. There's a great wave of support for the right women to run for president. But I'd think President Sebelius is more likely in the long term.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )just not getting hysterical about the normal kind of stuff that happens in nomination fights. Do you guys remember the bitter infighting between McCain and Bush supporters, or the Gore and Bradley supporters in 2000? The Republicans had the sense to let it drop and not continually bring it up in the general, the Democrats did as well but not as quickly as the Republicans.
Clinton has had some borderline head cases advising her in this campaign. To continually review their (and her) mistakes is not helpful at this point. If you really need to get this stuff off your chest, wait until after the election.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Clinton hasn't even officially conceded yet. When I attack Hillary's bogus popular vote talking point in July you can rightfully castigate me for not moving on. Pointing out what happend two days ago is hardly "continually reveiw[ing] their (and her) mistakes".
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )The false claims that she received more votes did little to win her any... they just poisoned the brew and put into question the victor's legitimacy. You can't put that genie back in the bottle.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )"This election was like Zimbabwe... but you should all respect the results anyway." I know how I'd feel about that, if the shoe was on the other foot and I genuinely believed the nom had been stolen from my candidate.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )given a choice between moving forward together or continuing to criticize Clinton, you guys opt for continuing to criticize Clinton. Aside from making you feel better about yourselves, how exactly is that helping Obama in the general? I think maybe you should listen a bit more to what Obama says about Clinton and her supporters.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Your post seemed to me to suggest that you think Hillary Clinton did nothing to damage the Party, and I disagree. That's coming from stillnotking-the-analyst. Stillnotking-the-advocate is all for courting Clinton supporters -- a job that would be considerably easier if not for the fact that the losing candidate has repeatedly insinuated that the election was illegitimate.
I want all the Clintonistas to support Obama. Objectively speaking, though, a considerable number of them probably aren't going to, for reasons that I can actually understand and empathize with -- the same way I can empathize with creationists who think evolution is a Communist lie and don't want it taught to their kids.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I think with some sympathy and cordiality, the vast bulk of Clinton supporters will get behind Obama. But calling her names and claiming that she singlehandedly destroyed the Democratic party isn't going to do it.
There's one particular thing that Clinton did that I think was a mistake, saying that she and McCain were qualified and Obama wasn't (I even wrote to her campaign and the campaign chairs in my state about it, as if that would make any difference). But no, I don't see any long lasting damage to the party as long as the most vehement on both sides can hold their tongues and not overreact for the next 5 months. There's so much more to gain than lose, that's the way I see it - the damage she did will be dwarfed by the damage of pushing her and her supporters out of the party.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )It's not that hard, Hank. And I'd suggest you stop insulting folks who take a different view when it comes to the campaign and the way it was run. It's not about making anyone feel better about themselves -- that would more likely accrue from putting on a well-polished halo and boasting about one's open-mindedness -- it's about nothing more nefarious than paying attention.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )all I'm saying is let go of Clinton, it's over. Like it or not a lot of Democrats voted for her and you want their enthusiastic support. As I recall, we've managed to drive at least one of them off from here. Do you really think that's a good approach for the general? Like I said, pay attention to what the next President is telling you. There will be plenty of time to talk about what a witch Clinton is after Obama gets elected. Surprisingly, it won't matter much at that point.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )A graceful speech on Tuesday night and we'd be having a very different discussion today. There has to be accountability. If there isn't, the unity you pine for won't ever happen.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )if there's a graceful speech on Saturday those four days difference makes that big a deal?
Ignore me all you want, at least pay attention to what Obama is saying.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )What was the last time you heard a concession speech 4 days after a candidate had -- without room for doubt -- lost? Acceptance of a legitimate result is an important ingredient of democracy.
As for Obama, I applaud him for his stand. Indeed, he can't very well say anything else. On the internets, we can be a little more blunt and a little less diplomatic.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )But I'm not going to pretend she didn't do what she did, particularly when it has a direct and invidious impact on the election. Try this, for example. I am as yet unconvinced that she will work without ulterior motive for Obama's election. You mentioned some historical examples elsewhere. Is it pro forma to refuse to release your delegates? Is it business as usual to reserve the right -- and to be sure to make that position public -- to have your name put into nomination at the convention? Funny. I don't remember this from McCain in 2000. Do you?
The last thing I want to talk about right now is Hillary Clinton. But you felt compelled to write a diary about how unfair and mean and hysterical everyone has been to the poor victimized Senator from New York.
That's simply not true. And pointing that out to you has nothing to do with one's approach to the general election.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )at this site it happens to be people hysterical for Obama and against Clinton, at a place like Talk Left it's the opposite. You show as an example an on-line petition, so what? Anybody with $20 can put up a web site. I'm sure there are plenty of Obama supporters who would have done the same had their positions been reversed.
Look, you guys have been absolutely consistent, since the primaries started you have interpreted every single thing as reflecting the absolute best of Obama and the absolute worst of Clinton. It's obsessive, and as your own candidate has said, it's time for unity. I've criticized Clinton a couple of times when she went over the line, but you and some others here have been absolutely insane about it.
It's funny, I write a diary calling for unity and to put the worst excesses of the campaign behind us, but you're apparently not ready. Who does that help?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )At a place like Talk Left comments critical of Obama-bashing illogic are simply deleted. At a place like MyDD explicitly racist diaries made the rec list with regularity (it's gotten better recently). There is simply no comparison to the Forvm's occasional anti-Clinton excesses.
It's funny, I write a diary calling for unity and to put the worst excesses of the campaign behind us, but you're apparently not ready.
You wrote a diary hours after Clinton sent an email stating she is preparing to concede that (rather condescendingly, IMHO) says to "Remember, the only thing worse than being a sore loser is being a sore winner." Who was being a sore winner?
You characterize claims that she would fight to the convention as "hysterical" and yet Ickes explicitly announced that she reserved her right to challenge the credentials committee, McAuliffe introduced her after Obama had clinched the required delegates as the "next President of the United States", Hillary said Tuesday that "you voted because you wanted a leader who will stand up for the deepest values of our party. A party that... counts every single vote", and asked her supporters to go to her website and tell her what they wanted her to do... as if the chants of "Denver! Denver! Denver!" weren't sufficiently indicative of their mood. It's a bit dismissive to characterize such claims as hysterical, no?
If your goal was to promote unity, I have to tell you frankly that it came across more like taking shots at the anti-Clinton crowd. Maybe those shots are deserved, maybe they aren't, but you don't seem to want people to discuss that in comments...
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )that she had some head cases advising her (which she gets the blame for since she hired them).
But let's be honest, repeatedly comparing her to Nixon? Statements that everything the Republicans ever said about the Clintons were true? Stuff like that just makes no sense to me. You don't see me saying stuff like that about any liberal or Democrat. Sure I tweak people, but do you really think what I wrote even approaches some of the stuff written around here? Heck, I was called a blatant liar a few comments ago, I just don't care because that's what happens in any thread with the word Clinton in it.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Your claims are completely specious and well-refuted by the commenters you insulted both directly and indirectly. (stillnotking re the difference between advocacy and analysis, Blue re your selective amnesia, etc.) It's not my fault that no one in here seems to agree with you. Trying to bully your way past simple disagreement ain't gonna work either.
You're not calling for unity. You excoriating fellow commenters for disagreeing with your analysis of recent events. You have been more than obsessive when it comes to making the same point about criticism of Senator Clinton. And now you're actually calling fellow commenters 'absolutely insane' for doing the same thing you are. Offering their opinion.
Who does that help?
(And JFTR? The idea that you wrote a diary calling for unity is a bald-faced lie. Your diary, from its snarky headline on, was nothing more than an attempt to use recent events to hector and ridicule those who disagree with you about Senator Clinton's behavior. Next time you want to impugn outsized passions? Look to your own.)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I'm sure in the bigger picture what we say here doesn't matter, I think you're insanely obsessed with Clinton and you think I'm naive and blind to her faults - so what, who cares what we think. But in the larger world it does make a difference, it's simple math. Obama can't afford to alienate Clinton supporters, and neither can his supporters. I saw Chuck Todd on MSNBC do a state by state breakdown, and while I still think Obama has the wind at his back and is very likely to win, it's not a foregone conclusion.
Sometimes it seems like you and some others here would rather see Clinton ground into the dirt rather than see Obama get elected. I think that's a shortsighted attitude to take. Don't be so obsessed about what happens in May and June that you lose sight of what's going to happen in November. Just like you're emotionally invested in Obama, there are millions of people who are emotionally invested in Clinton. Telling them that they're crazy and that their candidate is the worst combination of George Wallace and Richard Nixon is not going to help Obama, but it sure as hell will help McCain.
BTW, you think these are insults? You don't know what an insult is, you have no idea of the kind of stuff I'd say if I didn't like you guys.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )And you realize that's what you're doing. Lecturing fellow commenters so that they might be as perspicacious as you are when it comes to the political process. And while that sense of entitlement sounds suspiciously familiar, it's probably best to move on to whatever happens next.
Which is what everyone here was already doing, each in their way. Sorry we didn't do it as wisely as you.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I'm not supposed to bloviate as much as everyone else around here? What do you think we're all doing here anyway? It ain't writing deathless prose, I can tell you that. We all have a touch of narcissism or we wouldn't spend as much time as we do broadcasting our thoughts to the internet.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )It sorta boils down to this. Some of us question Hillary's motives. You get bent out of shape at us for doing so. The former is a complaint and/or opinion. The latter, like it or not, remains a lecture.
There's a difference.
(And as for the Nixon complaint that makes you buggy, let's at least consider the following: her dishonest pop vote claim is a perfect example of the uses of the Big Lie in the political arena. And we all know who made an art form out of that.)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I don't think "question" is the right word, it's more like assume the worst possible motive and berate anyone who disagrees. But you just don't do vicious very well, Harley, so it's kind of jarring. It's not a lecture, it's just letting you know that assuming motives is the weakest form of argument and only preaches to the converted.
You don't have to worry about me being buggy, I've said for a long time that I'll be happy to vote for Obama. Keep pushing that Clinton is evil theme and you may sway others, though.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )We clearly disagree. I'm going to go see if I can find anyone who agrees with you. I'll be right back.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )