Forvm Book Club!!


Frankly, and at the moment, I could care less about politics. Obama's win ratifies my self-image to such an extent that it hardly seems necessary. I'm no longer a stunned loser wondering how the hell we managed to lose again. I'm a smug winner drunk on the smugness of winning. And it feels good.

So let's talk about books instead.

John Lennon: The Life by Phillip Norman - After wading through Bob Spitz's huge band bio last year, I had my doubts about another 800 plus pages on the Beatles -- Sexy Sadie was originally written as a scathing put-down of the Maharishi, I know, I know -- but Lennon's life after the breakup also bears examination, particularly the Lost Year in Los Angeles with Harry Nilsson and others. Norman's a good, if somewhat workmanlike biographer. But there are plenty of details that make the book worthwhile (Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever were meant to be part of a concept album about John and Paul's childhoods in Liverpool, but George Martin, in a decision he regretted for years, released them as a two A-sides single, and the band went on to record the bloated and overrated Sgt. Peppers instead), and yeah, yeah, yeah -- it's still a great story, and this time seen from Lennon's perspective.

2666 by Roberto Bolano -- This is the Very Big Book of the year, and as soon as I finish the Lennon bio, I'm diving in. And that's pretty much the only way to read Bolano. Dive in, swim around, take what you can, and then surface for a little air before returning. His prose is densely poetic, his ideas come from every possible direction, and while his short novels are relatively easy to read, the two longer novels -- this and The Savage Detectives -- ask for as much as they give. Bolano's story is now legend, a wild-assed poet and heroin abuser who finally found a coherent muse and then raced to the finish -- in his case, liver failure due to all that heroin -- in fairly amazing fashion. His initial plan for 2666 was to release it in five parts, all the better to provide for his family. But the family made a different decision after his death, and decided the work was best honored by a single release. Jonathan Lethem, not a bad writer himself, put it this way in last Sunday's NY Times:

A novel like “2666” is its own preserving machine, delivering itself into our hearts, sentence by questing, unassuming sentence; it also becomes a preserving machine for the lives its words fall upon like a forgiving rain, fictional characters and the secret selves hidden behind and enshrined within them: hapless academic critics and a hapless Mexican boxer, the unavenged bodies deposited in shallow graves. By writing across the grain of his doubts about what literature can do, how much it can discover or dare pronounce the names of our world’s disasters, Bolaño has proven it can do anything, and for an instant, at least, given a name to the unnamable.

Okay. What're you reading?

Bonus Movie Note. The trailer for Danny Boyle's latest movie, Slumdog Millionaire, had me at the Ting Tings music cue. Check it out for yourself. (That the Ting Tings music cue gives way to a Sigur Ros cue only makes it sweeter.)

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

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Wars Separated by 166 Odd Years (#136394)
by DNR-DC

Try Almost A Miracle by John Ferling, your admiration of George Washington will grow, esp. after the war when he could have declared a dictatorship.

and, An Army at Dawn by Rick Atkinson, the first in his liberation trilogy and the best of the two book series, IMO. Knowing Atkinson, though, his third volume about Normandy and the Western Europe campaign yet to be published, will be his best.

--

All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and I'm fine.

Best war book I read this year (#136396)
by wombaticus

Was March, by Geraldine Brooks. The opening scene is at Ball's Bluff, about 20 minutes from here, which was a bonus. And -- in part because it's based on the father in Little Women, women seem to enjoy it as well.

--

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

Aw jeez, so many books I wanna get from your lists. (#136313)
by BlaiseP

Current inventory of new stuff in the hotel room (the rest are in the back of the truck)

The Spirit of Carnival: Magical Realism and the Grotesque by David Danow.

Euripides: Bacchae, the Cambridge translation. A good, solid translation, less ornate and flowery than some might like, but the text is so amazing. Changes your opinion of Greek plays entirely.

The Taliban and the Crisis of Afghanistan by Robert D. Crews and Amin Tarzi

Wings of Madness (#136308)
by M Aurelius

A bio of Alberto Santos-Dumont by Paul Hoffman.

Paints a really complete picture of the man and his times, especially in Paris.

Alberto Santos-Dumont was an expat Brazilian who was the first person to achieve controlled flight of any kind, with powered dirigibles (lighter than air). He was also probably the first civilian to wear a wristwatch (designed for him by Cartier), and the first guy to fly an airplane in Europe for any significant distance (about 800 feet in 1906).

He had no formal engineering training but was a heck of a character, and quite lucky as well since he logged hundreds of flights and had several accidents, none serious so far. I'm nearly done.

I still have not read the Eugene Bullard bio. I'll have more to say about that at some time in the future.

I read Kurt Vonnegut's "A man without a country" a few months ago. I thought it was too negative and hopeless, though it also has some very sharp humor and not a little wisdom.

Arthur & George, by Julian Barnes, is next to my side of the bed and has been there for a while. I started on it and it looks good, but it's not for reading when tired.

--

Of course not!

Has anybody read Netherland? (#136306)
by Wagster

I enjoyed it, but I suspect it may have something to do with my being an immigrant and a former cricketer.

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More Wagster!

Yes, I've read it. A cricket novel. (#136314)
by BlaiseP

Wonderfully written. It's not really a story, heavy on the plot, thesis, antithesis, resolution. It's more like a stained glass window, hundreds of panes held together by the leading of the plot. Hard to describe.

Agreed, But Also Enjoyed It (#136319)
by Harley

He's a wonderfully deft writer.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

besides some cognitive sciency books (#136305)
by catchy

I read Bob Dylan's autobiography this week. Tons of interesting anecdotes -- meeting Monk + Belafonte, etc. Plus you get Bob's thoughts on the civil war + civil war history. Not everything's written perfectly but there are great phrases and his ramblin ways made for a pleasurable read.

Also enjoyed Russell Bank's Rule of the Bone last week. I believe it was panned, but I thought the tale was honest + insightful.

WWII history recommendations? (#136272)
by Jordan

I've read:

Churchill's memoirs, which are about Churchill and also some altercation with the Germans (just kidding, though I did read the abridged version to cut down on the bloviation).

Stephen Ambrose books are terrific.

I'm working through Richard Evans' relatively new history of the Third Reich.

With The Old Breed by E.B. Sledge was recommended here and is probably one of the first I'd rerecommend. Visceral, terse, powerful, candid, very human view of island hopping from the marine POV.

Read Elie Wiesel when I was way too young, don't believe anyone covers the holocaust better.

Spiegelman's Maus, also when I was pretty young.

Shirer's Rise & Fall.

Homage to Catalonia.

Beevor's Stalingrad.

From the top of my head. I've read a smattering of other things, but nothing else big that jumps out ofthe memory hole.

Any big recommendations? Any genre or level of specificity is fine. Memoirs, histories, bios, battle reviews, civilian life. Possibly literature, though I've read much of that too. As long as it's phenomenally good & worth reading, I'll give it a shot.

I still need to see Ken Burns' The War too.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Can't really recommend it (#136487)
by Sulla

because I haven't read it yet, but I've been eying War of the World by Niall Ferguson as my next book about WWII. It's between that or Eagle Against the Sun by Ronald Spector. However, I've already got a stack of books up to my waist to finish before I can justify buying either one of those two.

--

"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

Try William Vollmann's "Europe Central" (#136355)
by BlaiseP

Probably the best novel ever written about WW2 / Cold War in Europe, starting and ending at the right points. For me, there was no neat dividing line between WW2 and the Cold War.

Seeds planted in the wreckage of WW1 would sprout in the 1930, but the trees would go on producing into the 1960s. We go in search of some unique insight, some fresh perspective which might make this so-often-studied war make sense, but no such perspective is possible. Vollmann comes as close as anyone to giving us that perspective, but even Vollmann knows there is no mere explication of the matter, a new arrangement of the facts. He gives us a novel instead.

What some might find ponderous re-making of points I see as leitmotiv. It's a unique novel, seen through the eyes of Shostakovich, Paulus and many, many others. As Shostakovich would say "The majority of my own symphonies are tombstones"

Stalingrad was great (#136353)
by nyoos junkey

but I think I preferred his Berlin. I would heartily recommend that.

For me and war books I am about to dive int o"The Root" (on foot of a recommendation here - I think Sulla? - but about 2 years late). I'm also looking for something with some detail on Operation Tanenbaum but haven't settled on a title yet. I also have Lolita lined up to go. I've heard it highly recommended by so many people who's opinions I trust that it's starting to feel like an omission.

Interesting subject (#136491)
by Sulla

Hitler wasn't beyond doing stupid and wasteful things that hampered the war effort, but he did deny himself the gratification of adsorbing the Swiss into his empire.

--

"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

For memoirs, (#136309)
by aireachail

I'd add Goodbye, Darkness: A Memoir of the Pacific War by William Manchester.

Of the "grand" histories, John Toland's Rising Sun and The Last 100 Days deserve a spot up there next to your Shirer.

and

Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II by John W. Dower is definitely recommended. If you've ever wondered what it must have been like to live through the aftermath of such a profound military defeat, this is the book to read.

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

If you subtract an I... (#136304)
by Wagster

I could recommend Guns of August. But to address your question seriously...

Fareed Zakaria (who's sunday show is really smart by the way) gave a rave recommendation of Franklin and Winston. He said it was one of his favorite books ever. So that is one my list, as is Team of Rivals, which everybody seems to be talking about.

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More Wagster!

Picked up (#136266)
by wombaticus

For about $5, The Narrative of Cabeza De Vaca. He wandered around Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Texas -- just about everywhere -- for nearly 12 years, naked half the time. Incredible narrative of what the US was like in the 1500s.

I'm also plowing my way through The White Castle, by Ornam Pamuk, a Nobel Prize winner. So far, I'm not terribly impressed -- magic realism with unreliable narrators is so 1975.

--

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

I picked up Snow by Pamuk... (#136303)
by Wagster

It didn't really grab me. The ironic distance from the protagonist left me a little cold.

--

More Wagster!

I had mixed feelings about Snow (#136307)
by catchy

and btw, it's Orhan.

An interesting psychological portrayal of some women who would take their life over being forced to remove the symbolic headscarf.

But Pamuk didn't really address the issue that a lot (most?) of these suicides were probably disguised honor killings. I don't know how you write a book on the topic and leave that out.

Retro Thrillers (#136264)
by Kierkegaard

After my last little op, I decided to try going definitively off Advil, which I'd been taking daily for years. Needless to say, it sort of sucks, since everything now hurts, but in the month I've been off them, I've suddenly started writing compulsively, half a chapter a day in fact. That means my new novel should be finished by Christmas, hopefully. The problem with reading--and I still read about a book a day, as well--is that I'm so easily influenced by the styles of other writers and find myself trying to write like them. Especially if they're way better than me, which means I'm at the mercy of pretty much any new discovery.

But one genre is perfect. The British thriller, ca. 1960-1990. Hard-boiled, frantically-paced relics of the Cold War, with exotic adventure, seductive women, and brutal violence often thrown in gratis, their terse prose styles and witty dialogue keep me on target, as well as providing me with a gold mine of info about detonating bombs, for example, or killing someone with a fountain pen. Some of these authors are famous and can still be found in most libraries--Hammond Innes, Duncan Kyle, Desmond Bagley, Anthony Price, and Adam Hall, to name a few--but I've also happily found several dozen others of their kind lost in dusty paperback morgues. If anyone is interested in a fuller list, they need only ask.

British (#136300)
by eeyn524

action writers were great but a lot them were in a sad decline by the 70's and 80's. Hammond Innes was still good but predictable: narrator falls in with dangerously charismatic guy, who gets too charismatic and ends in disaster somewhere in the tropics. Alistair Maclean was the most notable decline; his last half dozen books were plain unreadable hackwork. Desmond Bagley aged a bit better but maybe just because he wrote less.

Hadn't tried Kyle or Hall. Could you throw out a few more names?

Not to mention LeCarre. (#136436)
by tomsyl

lost after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Spiraling steadily downward into mediocrity.

Adam Hall specializes in the super-dramatic, with everything on edge to a length and degree that can tire you out. Death lurking around every corner etc. But his hero, Quiller, makes James Bond look like a wimp.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Bond is a wimp! (#136467)
by Kierkegaard

Fleming was a fantasist even during the war.

I've given a lot of thought to the "Cold War" effect on spy thrillers, SF, military historicals, and even literature in general. My feeling is that the Iron Curtain represented the veil between life and death. The USSR was a 'thanatic empire' representing a sort of living death; to penetrate it and return unscathed was a symbolic magical journey.

In this age of trust-fund tourism and 'save-the-planet' sex junkets, there are no geographical mysteries left. Devoid of a thanatic ideological system, the modern sabre-rattling of Russia and China seems merely Ruritanian. The literary hero can no longer be mystically blooded and so must now wander in a landscape of self-doubt and navel-gazing. Instead of a thousand faces, he has none.

The Cheney Doctrine is the closest thing (#136497)
by Jordan

to a "thanatic" ideology going today...the practice of rolling over developing countries & bombing the 20th century out of them on the off chance they might support someone who could one day threaten our national security has just narrowly avoided becoming the world's dread.

Luckily it hasn't yet managed grow the wings and claws of a new imperial terror, and we're reverting to bumbling American normalcy once again, though an Islamist attack 10 or 100 times deadlier than 9/11 might bring it around again.

That makes us the bad guys, which explains why we have no "evil forest" underworld to send heroes into. We're living in it. Imagine Augustine's view of Rome in late antiquity for an analogue.

The theocratic atavism in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban movements, etc. is probably more immediately horrific (to our thinking), though it doesn't seem nearly as threatening as Soviet expansion & practice. Maybe because it's simply classic despotism/thug culture. Maybe because it's so obviously doomed.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Too true. (#136490)
by Bernard Guerrero

"The USSR was a 'thanatic empire' representing a sort of living death; to penetrate it and return unscathed was a symbolic magical journey."

When I went in the 80s, my father freaked. He seemed to be under the impression that our names were on some master list tied to a computer in the Kremlin and the moment I stepped up to customs in Moscow I was going to be swept off to the Gulag. Which always made me wonder:

a) Did he really think they were that competent? The only person in my group who got hassled was this poor girl with an Israeli passport, and I got the feeling that was SOP.

b) Just what was he up to in Cuba before he got out? :^)

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

You must be a Houellebecq fan. (#136479)
by hobbesist

Well, "fan" isn't the right word, of course.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Sure (#136484)
by Kierkegaard

And 'fan' works for me. But that wasn't why I referred to 'sex tourism'--all tourism that isn't either spying or business investment is sexual ;)

I'm thinking back to my childhood trips with family (#136486)
by hobbesist

... and I'm very, very disconcerted.

;^D

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Nice try ;) (#136488)
by Kierkegaard

But taking kids to Disneyworld isn't 'tourism', it's a whole other industry. I'm talking about a generation of people who drift from city to city and hotel to hotel and who, for the first time in history, can do that just about anywhere except North Korea. I have a few friends who live like that, and no, they aren't pop stars. And they view it as a lifestyle.

My point is, the world wasn't like that in the 50s and 60s or even 70s. They couldn't have lived like that then. The separation between 'East' and 'West' was profound and went way beyond mere politics. The two sides of the Curtain were like separate planets and presented writers with two completely contrasting reality-interpretation systems.

Who says I was talking about Disneyworld? (#136489)
by hobbesist

...

But anyway - I take the point. The great orderings of the world are, independent of their functions in great power politics, also psychical boundaries - damming up, concentrating & deepening our attention & interest.

But, oh, those lucky cosmopolitans ...!

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Bond goes to Xibalba. (#136475)
by BlaiseP

There are still plenty of autokratories tou thanatou, empires of death. For a while, it was Central America, then Africa, and now the -stans.

There's always a Heart of Darkness somewhere.

My wife made that point (#136478)
by Kierkegaard

Ideologically speaking, however, it's not the 'stans' that really represent the heart of that empire--it's Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Gaza, and Saudi Arabia. And there are thousands of Americans living and working in those places already, and dual-passport Americans who travel freely between them. Moreover, even if a novelist wanted to deal realistically with them, he'd face the same publishing hurdle that thriller-writers did in the '30s: novels about fascism as evil, OK, novels about USSR as evil, not OK. And for awhile, even Hitler's Germany couldn't be criticized.

It could be argued that Muhammed no more intended the thanatic empire created in his name than Marx did, but that argument hasn't helped Salman Rushdie or Danish cartoonists very much. Therefore, I think my point remains--modern literature is devoid of a mystical Hades-like counter-kingdom. Concommitant with that loss is the erosion of allegiance to and confidence in one's own.

Don't know many Americans in Gaza or Syria. (#136481)
by BlaiseP

It's hard to demonize the Arabs overmuch, they don't conform to any monolithic stereotype.

Truth is, I thought Ian Fleming's prose was horrible. All those spy novels were crap, regardless of who wrote them.

What makes for a decent hell in legend and literature? Orpheus, Vergil, Persephone, all those wonderful bits in the Bible, especially Samuel returned from the grave, summoned by the Witch of Endor.

Xibalba was a place of cruelty and testing, of deceit and false judgement, but the Hero Twins ultimately overcame, first by heroic feats, but ultimately via dying and resurrection.

Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”—
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
Should say: “That is not what I meant at all.
That is not it, at all.”

Desmond Bagley - yes. (#136265)
by mmghosh

"Running Blind". Made me want to visit Iceland.

And now you can buy it! (#136270)
by Kierkegaard

Iceland, that is. The book is OOP, I think. There was also a nice TV series made from it, which I've acquired with great effort. I also highly recommend Lionel Davidson, whose "Rose of Tibet" and "Kholymski Heights" are two of the finest adventure/spy/romantic novels ever written.

Just Picked Up the Davidson Books (#136271)
by Harley

And it wasn't easy, geesh, out of print even in the UK. On the other hand, two used books for under two euro ain't bad. Even when you factor in the shipping.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

So.... (#136281)
by Elagabalus

you could describe it as a....Harley-Davidson Book then? I'm killin' myself over here!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

I'm looking forward to '2666' (#136260)
by hobbesist

"Nazi Literature in the Americas" was enough to pique my interest in Bolano. But I'm still pretty committed to trying my hand at "Infinite Jest," so one of these two is going to have to wait.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

I picked up DFW's (#136310)
by aireachail

Brief Interviews With Hideous Men at Half Price Books in Fremont last week, and am about 1/3 way through. It's a wonderful collection of stories...perfect for the nightstand.

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

I'm going to pick that one up, too. (#136333)
by hobbesist

I thoroughly enjoyed both A Supposedly Fun Thing ... & Consider the Lobster (the former a little more than the latter) - and it was interesting to read "Up, Simba" (a longer version of the story he wrote for Rolling Stone about the McCain 200 campaign) in the last days of this year's race.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Same for Me (#136263)
by Harley

Infinite Jest, still waiting.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

My son (#136318)
by wombaticus

just finished it, so I probably should tackle it. I'm also going to take another crack at Against the Day. I re-read V over the summer and damn, that really was a great book.

--

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

Against the Day! (#136320)
by Harley

One of my favorite novels of the last five years. Truly worth the effort. And the willingness to let Pynchon, you know, be Pynchon.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Seriously, Harley? (#136332)
by hobbesist

I petered out 1/2 way through ATD - and it's rare that I make it that far into a book and don't finish it off. I just couldn't shake the sense that it wasn't so much a Pynchon novel, as a novel written in Pynchon-esque style. As if someone assembled a checklist of everything distinctive from Lot 49, V, & GR, and then dutifully went on (and on) for a thousand pages checking off the boxes. As much as it pains me to say it - precisely because I was looking forward to Pynchon being Pynchon - I think it was a near-total waste of time.

So what am I not seeing?

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Oh, for (#136429)
by Elagabalus

f@#k's sake, hobbesist! I just picked up the ATD Audiobook at the local library cuz' I thought oooh, Pynchon! boy, those insufferable stuffed-shirts at the Forvm will really love me now! This is my in!! And now you tell me it sucks!!!

Actually, now that I have it here in front of me... apparently, I'm only in possession of Part 1! Silly me, I thought 21 cd's would be more than enough to cover it. Turns out there's 42 cd's total!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

Dude. Pynchon Audiobooks. (#136431)
by hobbesist

Genius.

We'll make a mint.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Will they be illustrated? (#136435)
by tomsyl

I could go for that - Gravity's Rainbow as a graphic novel. maybe I would even finish it. And more remotely, like it.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Illustrated GR? They'd lock us up! (#136452)
by hobbesist

As well they should!

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Illustrated GR? Already done! Check it: (#136470)
by Jordan

http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/zak_smith/title.htm

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I shoulda known! (#136474)
by hobbesist

Thanks for the link, J-frame.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

I've Heard That A Lot (#136357)
by Harley

And can't account for it. For whatever reason, I was captivated start to finish. Maybe it's more about what I'm missing, who knows. And I certainly get the criticism that it feels like a "Pynchon novel" more than a Pynchon novel. Hey, there's no accounting for taste, right?

I had the same problems everyone did with Mason & Dixon. But was happy to work thru to the end.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

It resolves to how we read a book, what we want from it. (#136361)
by BlaiseP

If you want a taut, well-constructed thriller, with twists and turns and a high-wire resolution, don't read books by Pynchon or DFW or Vollmann. They're not for you.

If, however, you genuinely enjoy bizarre and recondite prose, found your way to the dusty ends of the second-hand bookstore, rather liked doing the research for your history papers and agreed with Borges that heaven was a library, then these are the authors for you.

Agreeing with the others, this is a Pynchon vs. Pynchon question (#136419)
by Jordan

Leave John Grisham out of it.

You have a small coterie of Pynchon fans here (I've read GR three times, don't know why I keep going back to it, it's probably one of the sickest, most deeply twisted novels ever written* – and *I've* read Kierkegaard (the local one, not the Either/Or fella who wasn't nearly as sick as he thought he was)). And the question is, what was wrong with M&D, and is the same thing wrong with ATD? Or is something wrong with us, that we're not getting what Pinch is up to?

*Being, near as I can figure, a psychosexual seance delving into the secret origins & purposes of WWII. My nutshell of the book at any rate.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

We could start a Three-Timer's Club. (#136433)
by hobbesist

Except that people might get the wrong idea.

Or the right one.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Well yeah, I wasn't trying to disagree, merely point out why (#136420)
by BlaiseP

anyone would find ATD or M&D enjoyable. Me, I was reading along in M&D, came to that bit where George Washington was Smoaking Herbs with M&D, along comes Gershom his slave for some Witticisms, Martha Washington arrives with some Dough-Nuts for the Munchies, I'm laffing so hard I put the book down, call my friend Bob up and read it aloud to him.

EDIT: As for ATD, had to run down to the truck to get it, (they're all lined up against the back of the back seat in my Rodeo) to find what I was looking for, Pynchon's own preview, so I could google it up. Here it is, in its entirety:

"Spanning the period between the Chicago World's Fair of 1893 and the years just after World War I, this novel moves from the labor troubles in Colorado to turn-of-the-century New York, to London and Gottingen, Venice and Vienna, the Balkans, Central Asia, Siberia at the time of the mysterious Tunguska Event, Mexico during the Revolution, postwar Paris, silent-era Hollywood, and one or two places not strictly speaking on the map at all.
With a worldwide disaster looming just a few years ahead, it is a time of unrestrained corporate greed, false religiosity, moronic fecklessness, and evil intent in high places. No reference to the present day is intended or should be inferred.

The sizable cast of characters includes anarchists, balloonists, gamblers, corporate tycoons, drug enthusiasts, innocents and decadents, mathematicians, mad scientists, shamans, psychics, and stage magicians, spies, detectives, adventuresses, and hired guns. There are cameo appearances by Nikola Tesla, Bela Lugosi, and Groucho Marx.

As an era of certainty comes crashing down around their ears and an unpredictable future commences, these folks are mostly just trying to pursue their lives. Sometimes they manage to catch up; sometimes it's their lives that pursue them.

Meanwhile, the author is up to his usual business. Characters stop what they're doing to sing what are for the most part stupid songs. Strange sexual practices take place. Obscure languages are spoken, not always idiomatically. Contrary-to-the-fact occurrences occur. If it is not the world, it is what the world might be with a minor adjustment or two. According to some, this is one of the main purposes of fiction.

Let the reader decide, let the reader beware. Good luck."

The "usual business" is precisely the problem (#136432)
by hobbesist

... is what I'm saying. You can't step in the same river twice.

(Or, as a student is said to have corrected him: You can't step in the same river once.)

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Against the Day is tremenjus, folks. (#136446)
by BlaiseP

Now, I wouldn't contradict Hobbesist, he's a bright guy. I only present my opinion of ATD.

ATD is Pynchon at his mimetic best. The villain Scarsdale Vibe and the whole vile Vibe clan, the Chums of Chance in their improbable airship, their talking dog Pugnax, it's just delicious. Where M&D was written in one long archly antique-y voice, ATD is written in many voices. Echoes of old adventure novels, the Hardy Boys, westerns, detective novels, a pastiche of styles which wouldn't make any sense on first inspection but would to someone who grew up on them.

Some have said Pynchon is writing a self-parody in ATD. I don't think so, but there's something of that gorgeous Borges erudite fakery and inside jokery going on in there.

ATD can't be seen as just another Pynchon novel. Pynchon's telling us something in a very different set of voices.

"Written in many voices" (#136451)
by hobbesist

- at a certain point (a few hundred pages in), that occurred to me, and I even found it pretty compelling - in the abstract. The different registers of low-brow genre-fic as alternative-cum-counter history. In concreto, it just did nothing for me. De gustibus, etc, etc.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Bingo! (#136449)
by Harley

It's the Hardy Boys/Western/detective vibe that killed me. I was entranced. And c'mon, who wouldn't want to join the Chums of Chance on their next adventure?

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

All right, dammit (#136450)
by wombaticus

I'm giving it another shot.

--

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

I Like This A Lot (#136424)
by Harley

Let the reader decide, let the reader beware. Good luck.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

This isn't about books by Pynchon (#136380)
by hobbesist

- V. & GR were electric & formative experiences for me - it's about this one particular book by Pynchon. And yeah, maybe it's just idiosyncrasy, but, you know, I want to try to make sure I'm not just missing something, coming at it from the wrong angle, or something.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Compare to Mason & Dixon? (#136330)
by Jordan

That's the only Pynchon so far that didn't hold my interest all the way through. I even read Slow Learner. Maybe it was all those 18th century majuscules.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I enjoyed (#136340)
by wombaticus

slow learner. But M&D was a slog and a half.

--

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

I had the same experience w/M&D (#136343)
by hobbesist

... but I made it through. ATD was, by my reckoning, at least two-and-a-third slogs.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

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