Stay Classy Senator McCain, Part III of a Continuing Series
Just a couple quick hits today. First, from Business Week's marketing and advertising correspondent David Kiley:
"What the McCain campaign doesn't want people to know, according to one GOP strategist I spoke with over the weekend, is that they had an ad script ready to go if Obama had visited the wounded troops saying that Obama was...wait for it...using wounded troops as campaign props. So, no matter which way Obama turned, McCain had an Obama bashing ad ready to launch. I guess that's political hardball. But another word for it is the one word that most politicians are loathe to use about their opponents -- a lie."
How low can you go? Heck. It ain't even August yet. Give Senator McCain time.
Second? Senator Obama comes right back at him:
"We want to have a serious debate. But so far, we've been hearing about Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. I do have to ask my opponent: is that the best you can come up with? Is that really what the election is about? Is that worthy of the American people? Even the media has pointed out...that McCain has fallen back into ... predictable political attacks and demonstratively false statements... Spending all this time talking about me instead of talking about what he's going to do. That's not going to lower your gas prices. That's's not going...to help you find a job if it's been shipped overseas. It doesn't do a single thing to help the American people. It's the politics of the game. But the time for game-playing is over. That's why I'm running for President."....
The difference? Obama is, as always, able to do this with a sense of humor and a smile. Cuz, you know. He's uppity like that.
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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
- Harley's blog
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Another rabid right-winger disagrees with the assertion by some that the "Celeb" ad was intended to stoke racist sentiments. In fact, this Obama-hating McCain shill is actually mocking those who make that assertion.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=178307
It is soooo obvious that the "Celeb" ad was intended to stoke racist sentiments, that this guy is either utterly ignorant, and hopelessly naive, a complete idiot or an extreme, shameless, disingenuous McCain partisan, right?
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)Kiley favorably citing Joe Klein tells me that Kiley is in the bag for Obama. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I don't see how Kiley can claim the McCain campaign was lying by having different ads based on different situations.
Two, Obama trying to take the high ground for wanting to debate the issues is typical, because Obama isn't debating the issues either. I've been gone for a week, but last I checked, Obama turned McCain's offer down for a joint town hall meeting.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)it shreds McCain's integrity by showing that the McCain campaign was planning to attack Obama and politicize an issue (visiting wounded US troops) that should not be politicized regardless of which choice Obama made in an effort to avoid politicizing the visit.
Obama needs to engage the electorate on the issues polls indicate are of concern to them, the economy, healthcare, energy and Iraq/Afghanistan. No need to debate McCain directly because the electorate has already largely discarded any and all solutions that have been proposed by Bush-McCain and the Republicans.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Obama couldn't avoid or unavoid. The Pentagon has rules that prohibit campaign-related personnel from accompanying Obama. There was nothing stopping Obama from going there. He could have told his staff to stay at the hotel. Had Obama gone there, we could then judge McCain's ads. But as it is, it's all hypothetical.
If you think Obama avoiding a joint townhall meeting with McCain is not a problem, fine, but the fact remains that Obama is calling for debating the issues while at the same time avoiding a debate of the issues, which is a typical Obama elision.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )John McCain just gets in the way of that. His endless negative campaigning, focused as it is on the insubstantial and emotional issue of Obama's image, is an indication that McCain doesn't have the confidence to campaign on issues polls indicate the public are concerned about. So why would anyone be interested in hearing from him?
The Pentagon changed their minds at the last minute and given the Rice Demarche flap, I don't fault Obama for smelling a rat and deciding to call off the visit to avoid a repeat of that and to avoid dragging hospitalized US troops into the increasingly rancorous maelstrom, largely created by McCain's negative campaigning. Something McCain for his part, isn't shy about doing, which makes his actions and those of his campaign doubly contemptible.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Joe Klein was an early defender of McCain, early and often. In fact, so much so - he felt he was an honorable man who would run an honorable campaign -- that Josh Marshall made a kind of parlor game about it, and frequently made fun of Klein whenever McCain said something particularly rancid (eg, the win an election, lose a war comment). Klein only changed his mind after Steve Schmidt took the campaign in a more Rovian direction, putting out campaign ads that even the candidate's mother think are 'stupid.'
Suggesting someone is in the bag for Obama becuz they cite Klein is therefore both lazy and inaccurate.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )and then switched teams to Obama. I can't see how you can say that Schmidt was a tipping point for Klein. If we want to talk about lazy and inaccurate, it would be Kiley for insinuating that McCain lied.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )So McCain lied.
Are you claiming that McCain honestly thought Obama was seeking to score points with the electorate as part of his campaign strategy by having the press document his visit to wounded US troops in Germany? Yes, McCain's campaign lied about Obama's intentions and they drug an issue that ought not be politicized into the full glare of a contentious political campaign, because they believed they could leverage some partisan advantage from it.
Not the behavior of an honorable man.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Paris Hilton’s family fuming at McCain campaign
Ingrates, typical.
Despite all their advantages they're just not willing to take one for the team, unlike the millions of economically disadvantaged and values voters willing to line up and vote against their own self interests with nary a complaint.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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)Harley, you will have to explain why Obama cancelled the ten townhall meetings; the ones he had previously agreed to.
After that, a recent speach were Obama details his positions on any subject. His recent comment on air pressure and tune-ups don't count.
I look fwd to your reply. It doesn't have to be timely.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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).
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Apparently, you overlooked the subject of the comment and part of Harley's diary.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Obama held two town hall meetings today. If you mean townhall meetings with McCain? I have no idea. I'm assuming it was a strategic decision. Or maybe he just has better things to do. And given how the McCain campaign complains about every slight, including invisible ones? I'm surprised that you're the only person I've heard yipe about this.
McCain is probably better off with the pre-screened houses anyway.
Your second graf was rendered incomprehensible by spelling errors so I can't respond to that.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )The complianing seems to be coming from "The One"; I believe he has even setup a web site (his second one btw).
Yiping, hardly. Just pointing out the lay of the land.
Still waiting for any substantial comments by "The One".
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Billmon is spot on, as usual:
If McCain wins? We will learn WHY so many true conservatives despise the guy.
If Obama wins? Complete and utter humiliation for the vaunted GOP machine.
Sounds like a "Heads I win, Tails you lose" proposition, Timmy.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )Bill you are probably of the opinion that Obama was the first African American to speak in Berlin on behalf of this country.
Simply put, if McCain wins, we will have someone running our national security who we can trust.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Just like W. I agree.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Besides, McCain can't even run his own campaign.
And here is what V says:
Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )In the meantime, why should he give McCain the free coverage? Obama can get coverage on his own merits.
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| parent )But the fact of the matter is, they are not having debates today. Obviously, McCain needs to call Obama out on the subject.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )To start with, he can say 3 sentences in a row without making a major factual error, selling out his professed beliefs from the last decade or putting the whole room to sleep.
And yeah, a lot of it's the rock star stuff. Like I said below, McCain could always shift the debate to policy if he wants. Hard to complain about Obama getting coverage for fluffy things when Obama's also more substantive on policy. McCain doesn't have celebrity, doesn't have ideas, why would he get in the paper except for being on a stage with Obama?
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| parent )Harley, as a pro writer maybe you can fashion a decent diary from this comment. It sure intrigued me:
Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)Warning, not forvm friendly language or imagery
Re: Jake Tapper --
The "Great White Hope" needs to go all meta with this or it will boomerang.
Speaking of boomerangs, this XKCD could well be spot on
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)I still say my award entry is the real winner.
The award Cole chose looks more like the Lorena Bobbitt Award for Excellence.
--~At times like these I am reminded of the immortal words of Socrates when he said...."I drank what?"
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| parent )Hmmm. I thought they'd all retired.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )...means massaging your prejudices, then perhaps you're right.
Sorry, but Jake Tapper's piece was pretty much spot-on. Obama has "played the race-card" over and over again, first against Hillary Clinton, and now against John McCain, trying to portray just about any criticism of himself as an act of racism.
And this was an obvious, blatant example. No mind-reading powers required. For John Cole to pretend otherwise is simple partisan jack-assery.
Look. Like any true conservative, I hate, loathe & despise John McCain. There are no conceivable circumstances in which I could ever vote for him. And I dearly hope that he loses in November.
But accusing him and his corner of the Republican Party of racism is grotesque and disgusting.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )If someone had actually accused them of racism. I'm surprised that someone like yourself, who seems to rail against PC sensitivity, would so readily accept this from the McCain campaign. Like everything else they've said and done this week, it's not about what they believe, it's about playing the game the way they now believe they must play it in order to win.
Obama has made this comment many times in the past. Always with good humor. And always in response to scare-tactics by the other side. Sorry you don't like the ju-jitsu.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Jake Tapper is now part of the McCain campaign?
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )Tapper is merely repeating the McCain campaign's Attack of the Day. That does not make him part of the campaign.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )means pointing out the obvious, then perhaps you are right.
An obvious blatant example?
http://www.newshounds.us/2008/07/30/fox_identifies_osama_bin_laden_as_ob...
Mind reading powers ARE required to take Obama's statement and decide that he was talking about McCain personally, as Tapper and you have done. Obama used the subjects 'they','those folks', and 'them'. That could indeed mean McCain personally, or McCain's campaign, or it could mean any anti-obama right wing speaker. I'm pretty sure it includes fox n friends, but now I'm mind reading.
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| parent )Did Obama Accuse McCain of Running a Racist, Xenophobic Campaign?
July 30, 2008 10:45 PM
"John McCain right now, he's spending an awful lot of time talking about me," Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., said today in Rolla, Mo. "You notice that? I haven’t seen an ad yet where he talks about what he’s gonna do. And the reason is because those folks know they don’t have any good answers, they know they’ve had their turn over the last eight years and made a mess of things. They know that you’re not real happy with them."
Obama continued: "And so the only way they figure they’re going to win this election is if they make you scared of me. So what they’re saying is, ‘Well, we know we’re not very good but you can’t risk electing Obama. You know, he’s new, he’s... doesn’t look like the other presidents on the currency, you know, he’s got a, he’s got a funny name.'
"I mean, that’s basically the argument -- he’s too risky," Obama said, per ABC News' Sunlen Miller. "But think about it, what’s the bigger risk? Us deciding that we’re going to come together to bring about real change in America or continuing to do same things with the same folks in the same ways that we know have not worked? I mean, are we really going to do the same stuff that we’ve been doing over the last eight years? ... That’s a risk we cannot afford. The stakes are too high."
Obama made similar comments earlier in the day in Springfield, Mo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does it not seem as if Obama just said McCain and his campaign -- presumably the "they" in this construct -- are saying that Obama shouldn't be elected because he's a risk because he's black and has a foreign-sounding name?
The Obama campaign says no, no, no, certainly not, he was talking about his "opponents" in general, writ large, the talk radio hosts and smear artists and such.
Then in Union, Mo., this evening, Obama seemed to specifically accuse McCain and the GOP of peddling racism and xenophobia.
Obama said that "John McCain and the Republicans, they don’t have any new ideas, that’s why they’re spending all their time talking about me. I mean, you haven’t heard a positive thing out of that campaign in ... in a month. All they do is try to run me down and you know, you know this in your own life. If somebody doesn’t have anything nice to say about anybody, that means they’ve got some problems of their own. So they know they’ve got no new ideas, they know they’re dredging up all the stale old stuff they’ve been peddling for the last eight, 10 years.
"But, since they don’t have any new ideas the only strategy they’ve got in this election is to try to scare you about me. They’re going to try to say that I’m a risky guy, they’re going to try to say, 'Well, you know, he’s got a funny name and he doesn’t look like all the presidents on the dollar bills and the five dollar bills and, and they’re going to send out nasty emails.
"And, you know, the latest one they’ve got me in an ad with Paris Hilton," Obama said, referring to a McCain campaign ad launched today. "You know, never met the woman. But, but, you know, what they’re gonna try to argue is that somehow I’m too risky."
There's a lot of racist xenophobic crap out there. But not only has McCain not peddled any of it, he's condemned it.
Back in February, McCain apologized for some questionable comments made by a local radio host. In April, he condemned the North Carolina Republican Party's ad featuring images of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
With one possible exception, I've never seen McCain or those under his control playing the race card or making fun of Obama's name -- or even mentioning Obama's full name, for that matter!
(The one exception was in March when McCain suspended a low-level campaign staffer for sending out to a small group of friends a link to a video that attempts to tie Obama not only to Wright but to the black power movement, rappers Public Enemy and Malcolm X.)
While I have no doubt there will be a bunch more racist, xenophobic, and other ignorant drek coming our way courtesy of the Internet and perhaps the occasional cable news network, it's important to determine where it's coming from. Is it from a specific campaign or party? A third-party group? A third-party group with direct ties to establishment figures? This all matters.
I've seen racism in campaigns before -- I've seen it against Obama in this campaign (more from Democrats than Republicans, at this point, I might add) and I've seen it against McCain in South Carolina in 2000, when his adopted Bangladeshi daughter Bridget was alleged, by the charming friends and allies of then-Gov. George W. Bush, to have been a McCain love-child with an African-American woman.
What I have not seen is it come from McCain or his campaign in such a way to merit the language Obama used today. Pretty inflammatory.
- jpt
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )I'm late to mentioning this, but Tapper is right.
Obama (elipses mine, just for clarity)
and even clearer version:
Obvious translation: "John McCain and the Republicans are trying to make you fear the black guy".
Who agrees/disagrees with my translation?
Who thinks that such a (serious, severe) charge against McCain is justified by anything McCain has done?
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| parent )FYI, gents:
Any thoughts? Is "spokesman Bill Burton" lying or otherwise misrepresenting Obama's position? If not, Obama disagrees with you; he does NOT think that McCain is trying to get people to fear him because he's black. Yet there seems to be no other reasonable interpretation of what Obama said. So what are we to make of Obama making that very ugly charge against McCain when he didn't really believe it was valid?
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| parent )and ensuring McCain isn't able to pressure the refs (news media) into foot faulting Obama over his self deprecating remarks.
It's called politics, and Obama seems to be pretty good at it and quite capable of matching McCain shot for shot despite the inbuilt disadvantage of his candidacy. That which must remain unspoken but lurks in the background regardless, in the mind of a significant slice of the electorate McCain needs to secure if he's to win the race for the WH.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )So you're saying that Obama campaign spokesperson Bill Burton, in responding to an issue with a great deal of focus this week, is clearly lying. Please confirm that's what you're saying (or just get all evasive now as you like to do)
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| parent )and mine of McCain's negative campaign antics.
Snap.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Geez Louise.
I quote Obama's campaign spokeserpson saying "Barack Obama in no way believes that the McCain campaign is using race as an issue", and I ask "Is 'spokesman Bill Burton' lying or otherwise misrepresenting Obama's position?"
You reply:
Bill Burton is playing the game
which of course sounds like he was DELIBERATELY saying something he believed to be false, otherwise known as...you guessed it: lying. Unless you can explain how Burton "playing the game" by stating something that is not true does not equate to his deliberately stating something that is not true.
Ya' know, I told myself a while back not to waste much time with you because you get all evasive (even more so, and more quickly, than many others here on Forvm), making a good-faith discussion/debate impossible. I guess on this rainy Saturday I gambled some time on another try. Bad call on my part.
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| parent )One, Obama has made this comment, or one like it, countless times during the campaign. It's his way of joking about the obvious: that he is a different kind of candidate, and that includes the color of his skin.
Two, when McCain goes negative like he did this week, he's trying to point out possible pitfalls in being a different kind of candidate. He doesn't have to refer to skin color for that to be part of the larger equation. That he is utterly humorless while doing so is no surprise.
Three, McCain isn't playing the race card when he goes negative, Obama isn't playing the race card when he jokes about McCain's negative campaigning. The McCain campaign is merely playing games for the rubes to imbibe.
Stop imbibing.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Huh? Are you saying he is saying that McCain will try to make people afraid of him because he's black, but that he's just joking -- as in, he doesn't really mean it? If not, WTF are you saying?
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| parent )And looking at your response to Sparti below, you have to understand that shouting that anything that does not conform to your existing prejudices is by definition poorly argued, or whatever invidious adjective/adverb you employ, is going to get you nowhere fast. Honestly. Folks will simply start to ignore you.
If you have an actual objection or response, then make it.
As for my own comment, yes, Obama has used the same lines many times during the campaign. He's doing something that is quite smart, making fun of the fears that a lot of folks have about him, some subconsciously, some not. And he does it in order to help ameliorate those fears.
So joking about his name, joking about his skin color, whatever. It's been done countless times before. It doesn't suddenly become playing the Race Card becuz the McCain campaign tells you to think it does.
McCain is trying, and quite clearly, to drive up Obama's negatives. Not by attacking his policy positions, but by attacking Obama personally. It makes perfect sense that he would use the familiar formulation as part of his response.
McCain is trying to make people afraid of Obama becuz he's different. Becuz he's popular. Becuz he's a celebrity. Becuz he's the messiah. Becuz he's inexperienced. Becuz he'd rather lose a war and win an election.
Pick one. I don't care. Obama's response was absolutely appropriate.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Let's dispense with the extraneous stuff. You are agreeing that Obama was accusing McCain of trying to create fear of Obama because he's black, correct? If that's a "yes", please say "yes", without following it by some other statement as if to confuse matters (i.e., appearing to give a straight "yes" answer, but then indicating that you may be saying "yes" to something else, which is a typical -- lame -- evasive rhetorical tactic.)
As for past statements, are you saying that Obama has accused McCain of this tactic (playing on racist fears) before? If so, please provide link to quote.
If not -- if this attack on McCain is something new, on what is it based, and do you see that basis as sufficient for this charge that McCain is playing on people's racism and fostering or triggering fear rooted in racism?
Please, spare me the vague and irrelevant stuff. As usual, my questions are straight-forward. I'm sure you can give straight answers if you want to.
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| parent )National Campaign Fund says he's a Muslim. ExposeObama.com is playing the race card all the livelong day.
So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. McCain is playing the race card, absolutely. They're playing the Muslim card, absolutely. Playing the xenophobia card, absolutely.
Now you're a nice guy, wouldn't insult you our your convictions. But you need to face some facts here, Brooks, McCain is playing dirty as hell here. This is Willie Horton propaganda, brought to you courtesy of the very guy who made the Willie Horton ad, Floyd Brown.
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| parent )The 527s are out there saying exactly that...So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. McCain is playing the race card, absolutely.
(bolding above mine)
Either you need to connect the dots for me, or that was a non sequitur. I haven't checked the links yet to verify your premise because you first should make a logical statement. Perhaps you have an unstated premise that McCain is responsible for that element (stoking racist fears) of those 527 communications. Is that what you're saying?
[edit: Oh, and thanks for stating that I'm a nice guy. I'll show that to my girlfriend. I keep trying to convince her of that, but so far she ain't buyin' it.]
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| parent )Maybe McCain needs a good Hollywood lawyer to make sure nobody's infringing on his image rights. I sure wouldn't want my picture up on a website like that if I were running for office.
And please lay off the sophistry and talmudism, McCain's got his foot stuck in his mouth so many times even his own press people are reduced to saying he's not speaking from the official script. McCain's Straight Talk express is chuffing out black clouds of burnt oil: I foresee a tow truck and an expensive ring job in its near-term future.
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| parent )Yeah, when your picture's on the website, it's you saying it.
Are you serious? Because they have McCain's picture, McCain must be responsible for the content of their site?
They say you can indict a ham sandwich, but if that's all ya' got (let alone for such a serious charge), well, maybe you'd have a better argument that the ham sandwich is responsible for whatever content is there (even without a picture of a ham sandwich on that site).
lay off the sophistry and talmudism
Huh? Care to explain?
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| parent )When Jeremiah Wright says stupid things, Obama has to get out there and beat his breast and shout Mea Maxima Culpa. When a coterie of professional assbiters put out lies about Obama's faith and race, now I'm supposed to take you seriously when you say McCain isn't responsible for this?
This isn't tu-quoque. McCain needs to get that picture of himself off that site. Like yesterday.
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| parent )The Presidential debates were on, and Ronald Reagan, 73 years old, was looking a little fuzzy. He made great TV face, but the debates were tricky, especially when his remarks made it seem he wasn't always sure he knew what city he was in. Mondale looked younger, he was on message, and his message was Reaganomics sucks for regular people. His running mate was the first woman ever nominated for Vice President. Exciting, vibrant, youthful stuff.
The Reagan campaign was nervous, and they should've been. Their economic policies sucked, their foreign policy was criminal, and their candidate was frickin' old. The Gipper killed that last issue by stepping out on stage and going like this:
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Whoa! Are you kidding? You are comparing Reagan joking in response to concerns voters had about his age with Obama accusing McCain of trying to foster or trigger racist feelings (fear of a black man)? And doing so based largely/completely on an ad that showed Paris Hilton and Britney Spears?
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| parent )The concern about Reagan's age, fair or not, was real. The concern about Obama's race, fair or not, is real. Obama's looking for a graceful, funny way to turn it from his liability into McCain's liability. Same move Reagan made.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Jordan, I find your comparison odd if you are defending Obama's remarks. Obama charged McCain with stoking racism -- fear of a black man, apparently based on that "Celeb" ad. If you are referencing Reagan's joke about age concerns to defend that charge by Obama, could you please explain? Even if Obama was, for the sake of argument, trying to alleviate concern about his race (and by the way, I'm not so sure that was his angle or his primary angle), just as Reagan was trying to alleviate concerns about his age, and even if Obama was also using a slight bit of humor (referring to his not looking like the guys on the dollar bills rather than just saying that he isn't white), if that's as far as the parallel goes I just don't get what point you're making.
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| parent )Anyone who pretends otherwise is just...pretending otherwise. And McCain's supporters have been skirting as close to the issue as they can. It's almost like the first one to mention it loses. All of that is similar to the 1984 campaign & the question of Reagan's age...which he memorably defused (or so we now say) with a ready quip.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )If anything, McCain supporters are avoiding any mention of race whatsoever. Obama is the person who has played the race card ("did I mention he's black?"). Thankfully, he's done it in small doses.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Although admittedly, they waited for Obama to give them a small opportunity. They know full well everyone's waiting to see if there's an angry black negro inside Obama after all.
Branding Obama as "presumptuous." Well, he is a presumptive nominee after all. It's not a slur that would stick on a white male candidate, whose qualification for the job would be simply taken for granted. Presumptuous is code for "uppity."
None of that is nearly as over the top disgusting as McCain's claim Obama is ready to lose a war to win the Presidency.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )I don't have much regard for either straw men or painfully vague language through which folks imply something while retaining plausible deniability that they were implying it, and while trying to have it both/all ways. The matter before us is Obama charging McCain (not just "McCain's supporters") of deliberately stoking racist sentiments. You say "McCain's supporters have been skirting as close to the issue as they can." Well, what are you saying?? Just say it, for goodness sake. Are you saying "McCain's supporters" are deliberately stoking racist sentiments or not? Are you saying that McCain is deliberately stoking racist sentiments or not?
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| parent )Race *is* an issue, and Obama *is* trying to keep McCain from taking advantage of it by defusing the issue with humor. The McCain camp has done a pretty good job of keeping clear of overt race-baiting (they know it would destroy them)...but on the other hand they sure did jump on "playing the race card, from the bottom of the deck" this week, over remarks Obama's been making all summer.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Probably my last try to get an answer from you:
Are you saying that McCain is deliberately stoking racist sentiments or not?
I'm not asking if he's done it "overtly" so maybe you shouldn't answer a question I didn't ask just to move the goalposts and once again imply something you're not willing to state explicitly, presumably because you think it's not really defensible. Innuendo enables you to say essentially "Well, hey, I'm not sayin' X, but ya' know, look at Y and Z and well, they seem to indicate something X-ish, if ya' know what I mean."
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| parent )of evasion, just because you don't like my answers. McCain's camp has skirted the issue, but they've been good about not going too far. Also, they didn't create the issue -- like Reagan's age, Obama's race is a real concern to voters out there, and hence it's a real concern to both camps. The McCain camp has, however, gleefully played the "playing the race card" card in reply to comments Obama's been making all summer, trying to brand him as the angry black man. That is deliberately stoking racist sentiments, yes indeedy.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Thank you for finally giving a straight answer.
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| parent )since Saturday.
http://theforvm.org/diary/harley/stay-classy-senator-mccain-part-iii-a-c...
http://theforvm.org/diary/harley/stay-classy-senator-mccain-part-iii-a-c...
http://theforvm.org/diary/harley/stay-classy-senator-mccain-part-iii-a-c...
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Geez, man. That is just fascinating. You really think those comments from you contained straight answers to my simple, straight-forward question? Holy Schmoly.
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| parent )regarding this:
Jordan in his answer clearly disagrees with your assertion/translation, and indicates that he believes it is not Obama but the McCain camp who are deliberately stoking racist sentiments. Just as I did.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent ). . .Reagan used his line once, got the effect he wanted, and never used it again. Obama's been trotting out variations of "they're going to hammer me because I'm black and a liberal" for weeks now, and the fact that it doesn't seem to be having the insulating effect he's looking for isn't stopping him from repeating it. McCain isn't impressed or intimidated by the "oh woe is me, the mean Republicans are going to bash me for being black" passive-aggressive act, and I'm not sure Obama knows how to deal with that.
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| parent )dealing with worries about his age. That's just the stand-out line.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )The context of Reagan's comment was that he *had* performed poorly in the prior debate, including--memorably--Mondale pouncing on a repetition of "there you go again" with a pre-loaded attack line that visibly took Reagan aback. It was the equivalent of a solid knockdown punch landed on a fighter well-ahead on points, but Reagan was canny enough to get up and defuse the potential vulnerability with humor in the next debate. The 49 state landslide soon followed.
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| parent )and doing everything they could to convince the public he was hale in mind and body. It worked.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )er a landslide if memory serves
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Comedy works.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )After all, Mondale won his own state by at least two or three points--it would have been tragic if a campaign that amusing had paid no dividends at all.
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| parent )extending credit in the current climate may affect your bottom line.
Is Obama too skinny to be president?
Rick Davis :
WSJ's Amy Chozick :
GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )clearly and unequivocally, or the McCain campaign hiding behind a veneer of plausible deniability?
Get wise to the game or be played.
Why did you edit the full quote:
"They are going to do is make you scared of me" - check
"He's not patriotic enough" - check
"He's got a funny name" - check
"He doesn't look like those other presidents on the dollar bills" - can there be any dispute? really, I mean this is getting to be who do you believe, me or your lyin' eyes territory.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )What you call "wise" I call heavily biased and unfair.
Why did I edit? Well, if you're implying that I edited for the purpose of mischaracterizing Obama's statements to create a false appearance -- I guess you're "wise" to MY "game", too -- well, the answer is obvious, or, well, one would think it's obvious: I presented an edited version, stating that the ellipses were mine, taking out the extraneous stuff for the purpose of clarity. What does the stuff I left out have to do with my assertion (my translation)? Or are you just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks?
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| parent )necessary to highlight the point you wanted to make, sure. Objectivity, not so much.
Can we assume you don't dispute the McCain camps recent negative advertising binge is intended to "make you scared of me", insinuate "he's not patriotic enough", point out that "he's got a funny name"? But ignoring the history of the campaign operatives involved and the 800lb racial gorilla stalking this election, you draw the line at "you know, he doesn't look like those other presidents on the dollar bills"?
PULEEZE!
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )First, do you find it physically impossible to give a straight answer to a straight question, or is it a choice?
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the "translation" I presented?
Sounds like you may be agreeing with the translation, but arguing (poorly) that the answer to the second question is "yes", but it's unclear.
How about breaking your non-answer streak and answering my questions for starters?
And whatever other point you are trying to make, make it clearly if you can.
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| parent )and something you would be smarter to come to terms with sooner rather than later. Perhaps by recognizing that the Socratic approach has a somewhat limited utility when discussing politics across the aisle in the charged atmosphere of an election in a place like the forvm.
Disagreeing.
He could never be that direct without giving the McCain camp the opening they are looking for to claim that Obama raised the race card 1st in order to inoculate themselves on the issue, which is what the McCain camp hope to do with this.
He's addressing race as an issue in the election, which it is and acknowledging it's a hurdle he has to overcome with a certain section of the electorate. But he's doing it using self deprecating humor (see Reagan and the age issue), smart.
If you don't think past history would tend to suggest that Republicans and the McCain campaign will be tiptoeing up to the line on race to help leverage the vote from a certain section of the electorate at every opportunity, then I have some beach front property in Arizona you may be interested in.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Seems like you're trying to have it both ways (or you are just confused).
I ask you if you agree with my "translation", and you say "disagreeing". But then you say:
He's addressing race as an issue in the election, which it is and acknowledging it's a hurdle he has to overcome with a certain section of the electorate...
...past history would tend to suggest that Republicans and the McCain campaign will be tiptoeing up to the line on race to help leverage the vote from a certain section of the electorate at every opportunity
So you are saying that Obama was NOT implying that McCain campaign will try to make people fear Obama because he's black, but that Obama realizes that it is highly likely that the McCain campaign will try to make people fear Obama because he's black and so he's addressing it? Huh?
First, Obama is speaking about something that McCain is supposedly already doing not something he thinks McCain will do in the future (he said McCain and the Republicans "are trying", not that they "will try").
Now, are you saying that Obama is implying that the McCain is already trying to get people to fear Obama because he is black, or not?
And if you are capable of giving straight answers but often choose not to for some reason (fear of undermining some partisan position/talking point; fear of losing face personally; fear of straying -- and being seen to stay -- from the group position; whatever), and if you don't intend to do so in this case, please just tell me you don't intend to discuss this in good faith and we can end this exchange.
Otherwise, how about a straight answer?
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| parent )in saying that Obama's race is an issue with a certain section of the electorate whether or not the McCain camp chooses to raises it explicitly or indirectly by sleight of hand. And that based on past experience with people directing the McCain campaign, they (the McCain camp and Republicans in general) will seek electoral advantage with this section of the electorate by tiptoeing right up to the line, while being careful to keep their hands clean and not cross it. Just as they are doing now by generating faux outrage in support of their accusation that Obama is himself injecting the race card with his self deprecating comments meant to acknowledge and diffuse the issue amongst his supporters.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )lol, this is so funny.
Are you saying that Obama is implying that the McCain is already trying to get people to fear Obama because he is black (or stoking those existing fears), or not?
Simple question. How about an answer? "Yes", "No", or "I don't know" are suggested words as part or all of your answer.
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| parent )there's no need for any 3 wise monkey kabuki required to sustain the idea that there's some objective truth that can be nailed down in the face of plentiful evidence to the contrary.
The only objective truth is that both sides will see what they want to see while 'independents' sway to and fro at the mercy of the breeze.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Puh-leeeeeease don't try to dress up your evasiveness in some kind of legigitimacy, let alone superiority.
And by the way, your kind of evasiveness need not be driven by partisanship. It can also be driven by personal insecurity -- fear that if one makes a good-faith effort to answer a question, he'll end up in a corner in which his options will be to concede that he was wrong about something (which he is too insecure -- or perhaps too partisan -- to do) or to become evasive in an even more obvious (and embarrassing) way.
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| parent )YOU accusing ME of acting superior? that's a good one.
I answered your question directly, saying I disagreed with your characterization that Obama's remarks were a direct accusation that the McCain campaign were introducing the race card. Obama was using self deprecating humor to diffuse any attempt by the McCain camp to even hint at the issue (Britney add) by stating the obvious. He doesn't look like the other Presidents on the dollar bill. Simple.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )By the way, regarding "acting superior", I want to make an important point, not for your consumption, but for everone else's.
Yes, sometimes my tone can come across as condescending. Whether that's the case with me more than some or most others is an open question, and, although I don't think the folks on the other end of exchanges with me are necessarily (or likely to be) impartial judges, it could very well be that I'm more guilty of that than most. But that's not the point I want to make here.
What I'd like some of you to realize is that the stubborn, committed partisanship some of you exhibit -- in lieu of making a good-faith effort to engage in truly responsive, rational, substantive discussion/debate wherever it may lead, favorable or unfavorable to one's "side" -- is perhaps the ultimate form of condescension and of excessive ego. It's like (and I remember this from college) professors who choose to propogandize rather than educate and build critical thinking skills. One faces a choice: Do I make a good-faith effort to explore this issue and encourage others to do the same, or am I so sure I've reached all the right conclusions that I should avoid and impede legitimate exploration by others and instead simply try to get others to adopt my views? It takes an oversized ego to take the latter route, and I am much too humble (in the sense of appreciating how much I don't know and the possibility that I'm wrong about much that I think I do know) and too respectful of others' minds to take that route, but many apparently do.
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| parent )Kinda hard to deconstruct that comment and I really don't feel like putting in further effort with you. But just in case any fact or logic can possibly change your position, the Obama campaign has now admitted that Obama was referring to race with the "dollar bill" remark, and that remark was referring to McCain AND "the Republicans", as in
(ellipses mine)
So if there's a way to logically contend that Obama was not accusing McCain of stoking fear of Obama because he's black, I'd like to see it.
Now back to your regularly scheduled evasions.
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| parent )Don't believe you.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )off that 527 site. You want everyone to play ball with your begged questions, every time you toss me one of those begged questions I knock it out of the park and the thread comes to a screeching halt.
When it comes to questioning someone's inner motivations, all that gooey slimy proteinacious stuff about Personal Insecurity and Embarrassment, dude, John McCain's supporters are in a world of hurt. They can't run the Jeremiah Wright story up the flag pole any more. Now these guys are down to smearing Obama with... what... ? Paris Hilton? The Hilton family is sore annoyed, they're already maxed out on McCain contributions. Has McCain gone senile or something, doesn't he know the Hilton family are Republicans? McCain has very seriously stepped all over his weenie. I see no Good Faith coming out of McCain's corner. Just a bunch of faux outrage and high dudgeon about Racist Comments.
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce. Not so long ago, it was Bush the Dumber's people spreading vicious racist rumors about John McCain in South Carolina. What was that, something about a black child or something? Just slimeball push polling.
You'd think, all things considered, McCain wouldn't indulge in this sort of crap. There are metric tons of tar Obama could use on McCain and he doesn't. He doesn't talk about the Keating scandal, not because it isn't true, but because such tar only makes Obama look bad.
You can stop with all these red-faced jeremiads, any day now. Evasiveness is what evasiveness does. When McCain steps up to the plate and condemns what's being done in his name, you just let me know.
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| parent )lol, you are funny, man. I got "Reeeeealy Quiet" eh? Funny stuff. I didn't reply (and by the way, you didn't ask me a question) because, in addition it most likely being a waste of time, I had already addressed your point previously, after you had made essentially the same point. There was nothing more to say. But I'm glad you had that feeling of satisfaction that you had checkmated me and scared me off or something, however delusional.
And speaking of delusional