Is It Too Late, Baby?
In some polls--and I think we can all agree without resorting to Harley's PhD dissertations (complete with flow-charts) that polls provide only the sketchiest outline of the electorate--as many as 20% of voters are considering voting for a third-party candidate in this election; this from the weakest field of such pretenders in recent history. Yet given both the obvious relative disaffection for both candidates by the general public, what can be done? Are there no alternatives to the deeply flawed, unfit, and untrustworthy John McCain and Barrack Obama?
As the rank and file of both parties, balking and bellowing like cattle, are herded reluctantly into the conventions engineered to anoint both candidates, a few second thoughts are in order. In the case of the Democrats, whose turn comes first, the 'super-delegate' system was created specifically to avert the very slow-motion train-wreck which is about to overtake the party. Super-delegates' pledged votes can be rescinded at any time before they are cast, and Obama cannot win without them. While this runs contra to the Democrats' nonsensical claims of a more democratic primary process (Obama, in any case, has a minority of primary votes cast and could not have won without the decidedly undemocratic caucuses), throwing this back into the traditional smoke-filled rooms of the nominating process might produce a far better choice for voters. After all, this is the same process that selected FDR and JFK. On the Republican side, options are more limited. Their primary process was designed to produce an early winner--and it did. Now they have to live with it. But a rebellion in the ranks might still produce a candidate they can live with.
Right now, both conventions present astonishing prospective spectacles. On the one hand, you have a tightly controlled and choreographed event culminating in a mass-rally at a stadium (but hopefully not a torchlight parade), with dissent carefully controlled and social realist symbols on display everywhere. After flirting with two Virginians for vice-president and apparently rejecting Indiana's appealing Birch Bayh, Obama's people are now seemingly floating, or perhaps merely hang-gliding, the idea of former presidential candidate John Kerry for vice-president. I doubt he will be the final choice, but the mere entertainment of such a notion shows just clueless this campaign organization really is.
On the other hand, you have an event that will closely resemble a cast reunion of the 'Night of the Living Dead' films. Never in the history of the Republican Party, not even in '96 when loathing for the Clintons at least galvanized the Dole campaign into some grotesque Frankenstein's monster semblance of vitality, have I seen GOP party pros less enthused about a nominating convention. The prospect is so appalling, merely from a media event standpoint, that I may tune in just to appreciate the sheer horror of it all. Party insiders are reportedly desperately angling for Minnesota's Governor Pawlenty to be second man on the ticket, hoping that McCain will collapse on the campaign trail, leaving the younger man as the actual candidate; McCain's latest trial balloon of an idea is to announce that he will serve only one term--which is quite a tacit admission of just how miserable the two candidates really are and just how much politicians in general are now despised (the only public approval ratings lower than President Bush's are those of Congress) that this would actually be considered an attractive selling point.
The latest Republican rumor of McCain's preference for a vice-presidential pick is his old friend, the former Democrat and senator, Joe Lieberman. Words cannot express what a pointless and--at least among the Republican base--unpopular choice this would be. The thought of an Obama-Kerry vs McCain-Lieberman contest puts the lie to any myth of change by either party. Yet, ironically, I believe that it may well be Lieberman who holds the key to the voter's salvation. In a sense he is the first 'post-modern' political candidate. Because it was Lieberman who, after being rejected for his party's nomination to his own senate seat, shifted gears to easily win it back in the general election as an 'Independent Democrat'. And I believe that this is the path that the disaffected in both parties need to follow.
On the Republican side, the process should have already started. There are several prospective candidates for the 'Independent Republican' nomination who are starting to look mighty good right about now, Huckabee for one. Tom Coburn for another. And what about Fred Thompson? Younger than McCain, at least, and no unhealthier. Can at least read a teleprompter. Teamed with an attractive female vice-president like Condoleezza Rice (who would say yes) or Sarah Palin (who might not), he might actually win a plurality. On the 'Independent Democrat' side I can't think of a more attractive alternative than Jim Webb-Kathleen Sibelius. But the Democrats actually have a much larger field to work with, including several African-American candidates more appealing than the haughty half-white Obama.
And finally, it may be too late to get their names on the ballot in many states, but a vigorous write-in campaign could still propel a third-party ticket such as New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu into a plurality of any general election vote. Bloomberg has the money to do it. A Democrat-turned Republican, a fiscal conservative slightly to the right of the Dems on foreign affairs but liberal on every other issue, Bloomberg now appears an adult indeed compared to the two self-centered and politically immature prima donnas we are faced with electing (incredible that after all his years of experience McCain could be termed so, but alas, he is). Maybe it's time for an adult to be running things. And Mary Landrieu (constantly on the verge of leaving the party anyway), easily the most physically attractive woman in politics, would lend him the conservative ballast he needs to compete in the Red States.
And why shouldn't we choose from some or all of the above? Isn't the Coke-vs-Pepsi model just a little flawed for a new century? Europeans choose from among a half-dozen party candidates; even Russia's Potemkin Village elections feature more major candidates than ours. Maybe the 'us-and-them' mentality is a little last-century--maybe we need to think in terms of coalitions for the next.
Ideas, anyone? Or is it just too late?
--
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References -

Yeah, it's too late. But I suspect you knew that. No third-party candidate can be anything but a spoiler in the American system. Even Teddy only got 27%.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)You should worry more about defining What you want rather than Who you want, especially if you want to avoid an us vs. them mentality. Start small, work up from there. Organize. Don't expect some rich daddy figure to solve all your problems.
Your desire for 'physically attractive adult' candidates plays right into the coke/pepsi game. Grow up Kierkegaard.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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)in decades, a Bill Clinton without the character flaws -- a great speaker, good strategic thinker, great delegator & organizer, and he's got a handle on the vision thing. Plus he's on the right side of all the important issues of the day. His good qualities vastly outweigh his flaws, and aside from "the pigment issue," he's as close to perfect as national candidates get.
Comparing him to McCain's lackluster candidacy and the appalling record of Republican politics these past 8 years is just silliness IMO. You might as well be talking about some other election in some other country for all that this "pox on both houses" viewpoint makes any sense to me.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)And I have to admit, McCain outclassed Obama. His answers were crisper and more heartfelt. I think you can't underestimate McCain as a candidate. He can't read a teleprompter, he's gaffe-prone, and his campaign organization has been a bit of a disaster, but he connects with voters in town halls and interview formats like this one as well as anyone since Big Bill.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )One of the things I liked about last night was Warren's assertion that McCain was in a 'cone of silence' during Obama's session. In other words, he wouldn't be able to use his position in the forum to undue advantage, eg, crafting some part of his responses based on what Obama had said.
Turns out the cone was no cone at all. Funny how that worked out.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )this. If you actually think it's a big deal, let's see what happens in the next few days.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Nah, this is more in the realm of kicks. Solzhenitzencrossgate is also fun. The former will be long gone by the end of the day. The latter, maybe not.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Taking a break from writing Trotsky the Second, catching up...
Speaking as a man of faith, I found McCain's testimony of faith compelling, but if he tells the cross-in-the-dust story again, I'm gonna be sick. He tells it everywhere he goes. North Vietnam expelled a million Catholics from their area of control into the South, and the few who remained went into hiding. When they controlled the South, they murdered priests and shut down churches in accordance with their Marxist doctrines. He should not have told that story, I know what happened there, and of his connivance with the North.
McCain answered more questions by virtue of shorter answers. Obama got off longer and more circumspect answers.
McCain could not resist preaching. Obama lapsed into professorial mode. Neither man was perfect, but they were both better than I had expected.
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| parent )Neither candidate outclassed anyone. Obama was more thoughtful. McCain benefited from a friendly environment and the ability to offer up canned chunks of his stump speeches.
Maybe we're working with different definitions of 'outclassed.'
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )And after having communicated with my sister (who is conservative and a Rick Warren fan) I think they both did well for themselves.
McCain showed humor, passion and vigor.
Obama showed thoughtfulness and a greater ease with talking about his faith.
You're right, McCain had the home court advantage. It is the OC, after all. I'm sure many of them were nodding when he said rich starts at $5M/year.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )Rich means $5 million a year? in Sedona maybe.
McCain was just as incoherent on the Georgia-Russia situation as the recent press reporting suggested he is, and Saint Petraeus will not deliver 'victory' in Iraq no matter how many times 'Honest John' whishes it.
The biggest applause line of the evening rewarded Obama's dissing of Clarence Thomas.
I mean really, McCain outclassed Obma? What are you drinking?.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
| parent )he somehow got a hold of the other sides stash.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent ). . .perhaps after the Democrats are burned by a Republican presidential candidate's (McCain or a future one) adeptness at town halls, perhaps the RNC & DNC can come to a bilateral agreement to abolish those geek shows from the debate schedule once and for all.
--- Login or register to post comments
| parent )Come on, you can't tell me you wouldn't be delighted to vote for either "Maverick Straight-Talk" McCain who sucked up to his party's base to actually win the nomination this time or "New Kind of Politics" Obama whose campaign carefully crafts his position statements on major issues so he can have it both ways and who talks post-partisanship but shows little of it in his Senate record (Oh, and there's this little bit in today's news, further demonstrating his "new kind of politics" as well as the strength of his convictions http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-demfunds16-2008aug16,0,370690...).
A "maverick straight-talker" and a "post-partisan, new kind of politics" messiah -- and you're tellin' me that ain't good enough for ya'?!
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)But the soft money donations are being accepted for one reason only -- to pay for a convention that found itself with some serious money problems. That's Dean's fault, I'm assuming. And yes, it's hard to be a Saint in the City -- and that includes decrying the place of soft money in politics while accepting it, even if the reasons for doing so are slightly less nefarious than you might presume.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I guess cutting back on the cost (planning it more prudently rather than risking/incurring a deficit) wasn't considered an option, so they had to raise more money by any means necessary. Which party is it, again? Oh yeah.
Oh but wait, their seeking soft money contributions despite all Obama has said is not so bad because, as you've explained...they needed money to pay for stuff they wanted to promote the candidate! Man, was I way off and out of line!
Oh, and so the above doesn't seem like a partisan cheap shot...
I guess the other party will spend a bit less but also tell everyone all its supporters that they (the party supporters) shouldn't have to contribute much, and will then borrow the money for future party supporters to have to pay back.
Now let's see if I regret making an exception to my policy re: replying to you.
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| parent )I dunno. Given the traditional advantage the GOP has had when it comes to campaign cash, and has had for years, I find it hard to get worked up over this or Obama's decision to forgo public financing. In other words, I'd prefer a level playing field to the opportunity to be, uhm, closer to saintly in this regard (given that 'saintly' was a de facto decision to cede financial advantage to one's opponents).
It's certainly not out of line to point out the use of soft money to make up convention shortfalls. I just don't think it's evidence of anything shocking, or unexpected. I'm not supporting Obama to be Pope. I just think he should be president.
(And I wouldn't bet on the GOP to spend less on their convention. They have a great deal more cash than the DNC does. The only thing that brings the two sides to even, so far, is Obama's ability to raise money on his own. Marc Ambinder has a good rundown on the money, here.)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )My reference to the GOP spending a bit less, but ...etc., was not intended as a prediction, but rather as metaphor -- corresponding to my prior metaphor, reflecting the respective type of fiscal irresponsibility of each party: Democrats causing deficits by spending too much; Republicans spending a bit less, but causing deficits by taxing too little (and spending too much, too, albeit less than Democrats).
As for your excusing/justifying/belittling of any alleged transgression re: finances on Obama's part, well, what a surprise.
But in fairness to you, it seems (?) that you're at least acknowledging that he's acting in a less-than-saintly and somewhat hypocritical fashion, even if you're belittling and justifying/excusing it.
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| parent )But talk of the GOP spending less than the democrats is garbage, military expenditures are fully 2/3 of discretionary gov't spending. Who's championing that?
And before anyone gets all "defense of the country" on me, I've got tons of stories of friends who work on missile defense projects and don't do a thing for high salaries.
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| parent )Why do you choose discretionary spending as the denominator rather than total spending (less debt service)? I know it makes your fraction bigger and thus more impressive-looking, but come on, dude. Defense spending is about 1/5 of total spending. But I can see why "2/3" is a more tempting figure to use.
The other thing is that Defense spending is NOT 2/3 of discretionary spending; it's 1/2*. But hey, who's counting?
As a note, yes a Republican-controlled Congress and a Republican president added a hugely expensive (Rx) benefit to Medicare, but I think a Democratic Congress and president would have made it even more expensive** -- in fact, if it weren't for Democratic pressure, including from Gore in the 2000 campaign, it's quite possible that Medicare Part D never would have come about.
* http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges-charts/page/15/
and
http://www.cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.shtml
** although it's worth noting that Republicans prevented Medicare from negotiating down prices from drug companies -- and a Republican largely behind that provision took a seven-figure job with PhRMA soon after enactment of the Medicare Rx program http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/drugs/2005-04-25-drug-lo... and the outrageous "revolving door" seems to have been a factor among others as well http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=a1f3siSIvyWU.
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| parent )I did a big system for USDA, and the toilet paper ordering system for the USARMY, (LMP), as well as the logistics system for USTRANSCOM, (GTN21), there's so much waste and fraud in gummint we could easily reduce expenditures by at least 30% without impacting mission capability in the slightest. I'm pretty sure the percentage is higher in other so-called non-discretionary spending.
The single greatest cost-buster we could bring to the equation is a Democratic idea: universal health care. Perversely, if we treated small problems and reimbursed providers quickly, we would spend less overall. There's no excuse for not vaccinating all children against preventable diseases. The current system relies on the initial impoverishment of the beneficiary. Say what you want to about the deficiencies of universal health care, I've done the Blue Cross / Blue Shield system, and the Healthcos dump more money into the political system than all the other PACs combined to shield their profit model from competition.
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| parent )As the Ambinder post shows, by opting out of public financing, Obama will be the first Dem candidate to actually have financial parity in a general election in a while. If that inspires charges of hypocrisy, and I understand why it does, that's something I'm more than happy to suffer, as is, clearly, the Obama campaign.
That's not meant to excuse or belittle the transgression. I simply believe it's the right strategic play. And therefore, as you might expect, don't think it needs excusing or warrants belittling.
And now if you'll excuse me, I just received yet another fund-raising email from David Plouffe. Where's my credit card? :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )If that inspires charges of hypocrisy, and I understand why it does, that's something I'm more than happy to suffer
Interesting wording. Avoids saying whether or not you think the charges of hypocrisy are valid. Do you?
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| parent )I'm going to go with yes, if Obama has said that soft money is always bad and should never be part of any campaign -- and I don't know, btw, that he has -- then sure, that's a modest amount of hypocrisy to use it now to help fund the convention.
BTW, I hope you're watching Pastor Warren's Saddleback Forum tonight, it's pretty entertaining -- and Obama, who's up now, is doing very well, primarily becuz he speaks the languge, knows the Bible, etc. I'm eager to see how McCain does also. Both get the same questions, both get them with Warren's stated purpose. That we stop demonizing our political opponents.
So no talk about celebrities tonight, I'm guessing.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Uh oh, I got a straight answer. I don't know how to handle a situation like this. Never occurred to me it might occur.
As for that pastor, I had never heard of him before I saw him on the cover of Time (or Newsweek) about a week ago. I heard about this forum since, and saw a few minutes of the guy being interviewed. As mega-pastors go, he seemed better than most, but that's a very low bar. I think all religious faith is pretty much a form of insanity, and I think its presence in a presidential campaign would be supremely comical if I didn't find it so irritatingly stupid and if it weren't sometimes harmful (e.g., Bush's policy on embryonic stem cell research, which, despite what some say, is all about a religious view of the onset of personhood; discrimination against gays re: marriage; etc.).
I just turned it on, but I have to run, but I'll watch Obama deal with the abortion question, then watch the whole thing on youtube or cspan or newschannel website or whatever, assuming I can stand the idiocy of the concept long enough to watch the whole thing.
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| parent )Warren is asking, in the main, the kinds of questions all voters want to hear answered, and does so without trying to play gotcha games or get under anyone's skin. And he's asking the identical questions to each. Obama is doing very well. I'd think McCain will too.
So then, heaven forbid, viewers can actually compare and contrast their opinions.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )... saying isn't it strange how only non-journalists ask interesting and serious questions.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )On a totally unrelated note, I just turned on the TV at my new location for the evening, and since there's no cable here, I turned on the Jets game and saw the Jets kicker miss a field goal, upon which the announcer remarked that that kicker "has shown flashes of consistency", but [something about his inconsistency]. "Flashes of consistency" -- what a great phrase.
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| parent )but didn't get a chance.
The problem lies in what exactly you are voting for. If you're looking at a chief executive, you can balance their positions, their experience and a variety of other reasonably objective items and come out with a pretty clear idea of which candidate comes closest to your preferred positions, at least if you weight the positions as to which ones you consider most important. It can be as bloodless as a spreadsheet, and 69.3 for one will beat 57.8 for the other.
If, on the other hand, your are voting for a head of state, then emotion comes into play. If you are comparing each candidate to the archetype of a kind, elderly wise man who can inspire and lead (in other words an ideal) a spreadsheet will do you no good. Your vote will come from your heart, that is to say it will be influenced by the last bad picture or stale joke that circulates about the candidate. The most irrelevant factor can suddenly sway you into emotional distaste for an otherwise reasonable candidate. You are not voting for someone based on how you objectively think they will perform, but instead on how they make you feel about America (and by extension, yourself).
Based on what I've seen in politics in my lifetime, I'm pretty sure you can figure out which one of the above most people are actually voting for. Actual living human beings will never live up to the ideal that people want, therefore they will be disenchanted and feel let down. Real people have real strengths and real defects.
Unfortunately most people don't leave those archetypal beliefs behind as they get older. That's why you get the candidates that you get. You can talk about how attractive other candidates are, but I guarantee once they actually start running you'll find a whole host of factors that suddenly make them a lot less appealing.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)and consistency.
D- to both candidates on both so far. They both started with B's. And it's not even September.
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| parent )you really think you're going to get a read on character from heavily scripted appearances and "gotcha"s?
My guess is that you'd like to sit down and ask the candidate questions yourself, then see what they say and how they answer. That just will not happen, the country is too big. Everyone has to make decisions based on incomplete information, this is just another example.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )And nobody in politics has ever thrown their friends, exes, colleagues, allies, pastors, employees, or even grandmas under buses faster and more frequently than these two.
Even Nixon stuck by his people better than this.
A sickening spectacle, and there's no use sugar-coating it. I'm sorry Hank, you're backing a bad bet merely because you imagine he shares the same political ideals as you do. If he's elected, a year from now you're going to be the one most angrily denouncing him.
I'm just jumping the gun.
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| parent )I judge character by loyalty
Really? Unconditional loyalty? I guess Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg had the least "character" in the room. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3908431.stm
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| parent )you apply to a spouse or girlfriend?
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| parent )I want my wife to tell me when I'm wrong, and to act based on that.
Absolutely I would want her to walk out on our marriage if she felt like (God forbid, and never going to happen) I was harming her wellbeing or that of our son.
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )Well, with regard to any dispute with your wife, I can tell you when you're wrong: every time. Just ask her ;)
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| parent )Was that a serious argument? I hope not.
Look, the point is that disloyalty is not necessarily an indicator of lower character than loyalty. That may be the default, until other information is considered (just like dishonesty is, or violence, or all sorts of actions that harm people as direct effects), but then other information must be considered.
If I found out that my girlfriend was a terrorist engaged in bombings of innocent people in, say, Switzerland, and I reported her to the cops, would you say that that act of mine necessarily indicated lower character on my part than if I kept quiet or even helped her avoid law enforcement or even helped her with her terrorism (out of loyalty)?
Please tell me you understand that unconditional loyalty is not the be-all, end-all of character, and not even an indication in all cases of higher character than disloyalty would indicate.
By the way, I chose another country (Switzerland) because if I didn't specify outside the U.S. or an allied nation, there could be conflicting loyalties.
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| parent )I'm not looking for a girlfriend or a spouse. I'm looking for President.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )You are asking a stranger to put your shared national interests and common cultural values first and to be loyal to them in return for follwing his lead. You are putting powers of life and death in his hands. You make your judgement on his suitability based on his track record with other causes--and other people--in his life.
A candidate seeks a commitment, a personal pact, even a covenant with you as a contributor, a volunteer, and/or voter. He puts the relationship on that basis, not you. Hence you have a right to expect him to honor his campaign commitments in return. You have a right to expect consistency to his pledges and loyalty to his constituents.
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| parent )my point for me. Look at the language you're using - loyalty - life and death - covenant. This is not an executive position or political office you're talking about, it's a spiritual leader. Is there any mortal who will meet your standards? I would say it's very dangerous thing if your answer is yes, you would invest so much in that person that you'd lose your critical abilities when it came time to assess their actions.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )The 'life and death' part is real and precisely the bit you object to--as in Iraq. You believe that this 'executive position' has attained far too much power; I know this to be true because we've discussed it. It certainly was never the intention of the Founding Fathers for the presidency to even be decided by a popular vote--all of the 'language' I'm using to describe the wooing of that vote describes a new, an evolving, an unanticipated reality. Like it or not, this is the modern media-driven relationship between the candidate and the voters; moreover, this trust, this mantle of a 'spiritual leader' is part of the basis of Obama's appeal. If, as you claim, you were entirely an issues-driven voter and divorced from all personal considerations, you'd have supported Hillary.
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| parent )but my position was that I would be happy with either Obama or Clinton, I thought each of them had strengths and weaknesses to the point that neither one was the perfect candidate.
You're correct that I think the executive has been granted too many powers, mostly by omission, but that doesn't mean I have to endorse the way things are. I think it's very dangerous to have a "media driven relationship", it reminds me of too many totalitarian societies either real or imagined. I don't consider Obama my "spiritual leader", I haven't considered any President in that way. I'll keep on picking my choices in my anachronistic way, maybe others will, maybe they won't, but that's up to them.
I guess if enough do feel the way you're describing, it may turn out that this experiment in democracy will fail. My guess is that it won't fail, if reality intrudes hard enough all sorts of corrections will be made.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I'm far too cynical to be disappointed by a politician. No, I just look at the two candidates that the parties throw up and see who I prefer - sometimes for their positive agenda, sometimes for the lack of a negative one. There's no absolute scale to judge them against, and I wouldn't be giving Nixon that kind of backhand praise until you've read some of the transcripts of his tapes.
Yes, it's a faulty process. But to say that there's no difference between the two candidates is stretching for a reason IMO. Stop trying to apply the dynamics of personal relationships to politics, that just doesn't make any sense. It's like trying to characterize a nation as an individual, it obscures far more than it illuminates.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )speakth the truth. You weren't here at the first of the year when Harley seemed determined to chase down every comment that had even a whiff of anti-Obama taint to it! Man, I thought I was on Kos! There's a reason you don't see trickster around here anymore (that's right Harley I'm lookin' at you). Anyway, Harley and HankP had some major tussles and Harley ... well ... let's just say-he was a "joy" to watch! :)
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )Why use the past tense? ;)
When I returned, I seriously thought the place might be an official Obama campaign site. So far, it's been like spending summer camp at Jonestown, Kool-Aid-wise.
What are they gonna do if Obama picks Hillary for VP after all? Swallow?
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| parent )Please don't put "Hillary" and "swallow" so close together.
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| parent )feels that way, so give some of us some credit, OK? You can make this about policies or about personalities, everyone makes that choice.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Which policies does either candidate now hold that he held--precisely and exactly and without triangulation or 'clarification'--a year ago? Go down the checklist and you'll end up with about a half-dozen.
Is that enough to make a choice on? After the woeful and profligate performances of first the Republican and now the Democrat congresses, the answer is no. The staggering mediocrity of these two presidential choices is a reflection of that of their parties. I'm beginning to think history has outgrown them. The oldfashioned labels and loyalties no longer apply when both teams play in New Jersey...
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| parent )Position papers are nice, and while they're not engraved in stone, they provide us with a view of the candidate's aims.
When a high-powered exec is brought into a publicly-traded corporation, everyone can judge his daily performance by reading the stock price. Long ago, I did a gig for an outfit named Heidrick & Struggles, an incredibly powerful executive search firm. I was at the time just a callow programmer, but I ate lunch with some of these recruiters and learned much about how this business. Quite an eye opener, it's an objective, ruthless process.
Forget the position papers. It's all about our stock price. We're in competition with other nations, trying to attract capital and talent. And a nation has a stock price, it's called a currency. Nations take on debt. Nations cooperate and compete with other nations, friends spy on friends. The parallels are quite exact, going right back to Adam Smith.
Forget all the hooey we're hearing in the news, it doesn't matter. Someone's got to steer the boat. The laws of macroeconomics haven't been repealed or rewritten. We've got these guy's track records: I like Obama's better. I think he's going to get USA Inc. back on track, and he won't do it by himself. I'd like to know more about his cabinet appointments than read position papers, frankly, but a corporation doesn't always know how a CEO will behave once given the reins: that's why corporations have boards of directors to ride herd on him. Believe me, the USA is woefully oversold at current time, we're spending our money in the wrong places. We need a turnaround artist, and McCain just isn't that man.
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| parent )like you're willing to go down with the boat ;)
I'm not as good a swimmer as you.
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| parent )Expand on your boat metaphor, which looks too much like a cliché in isolation.
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| parent )"Obama's not actually perfect, therefore he's no better than McCain"
McCain's getting a free pass on so much BS while Obama's every flaw is put under a magnifying glass until we can claim to be balanced.
Sometimes one person just plain has more stature. Loyalty? Obama's been pretty loyal to his people from everything I can see, he didn't throw the pastor under the bus until the guy started running around off message yelling insanities into every microphone he could find. Obama stuck by that guy until he showed that he wouldn't stick by Obama. What else, he sacked a couple aids who said unfortunate things, that's politics. Overall the guy's shown more loyalty than is required, both to his people and to his ideas.
Then we have McCain who has quite clearly made a decision to throw his principles completely away and pull 180s on most of his previous positions, actually employ the people who did smear jobs on him 8 years ago.. you're gonna draw equivalencies there?
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| parent )You got knocked around in your last diary doesn't mean you need to write a follow-up diary even worse than the first. This is a diary death spiral.
And given that you both don't understand polling and have used it dishonestly in the last week -- 59 percent! -- I'm not sure basing the follow-up on that lack of understanding is a wise idea.
Undecided voters are not 'considering' voting for a third party candidate. They are merely undecided. If you have hard numbers that support a different interpretation, this diary desperately needs them.
If not? It's just more unfounded hyperbole.
Oh. And here's hoping your dream ticket -- Bloomberg/Landrieu! -- becomes a reality. At that point in time, I will make a substantial wager with you regarding their ability to garner a plurality of the vote. Tho' I'm guessing I'll have to stand in line.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Your bleating/bullying amuses me--which is why I added touches like 'haughty and half-white.' Just for you.
Your guy's a loser. My main emotion in that equation is that he's your guy. I'm sorrier for and more sympathetic to his other acolytes.
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| parent )And nobody's had more experience with "Diary Death Spiral" than Harley!
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )No fair turning my own rhetorical inventions against me. Without, of course, paying a residual of some kind. :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Because there's nothing more charming or proof of a wicked sense of humor than using "half-white" as a pejorative. Seriously. What a knee-slapper.
But worse? You base this stuff on a dishonest -- and at this point that's the only way to look at it -- use of polling data. And when called on it? Steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the correction/criticism. I'll give you one more chance.
- You started by citing a Rasmussen poll proving that 59 percent of the American public blamed the recent Georgian crisis on Russia. The 59 percent in fact was the number of respondents who believed this was a threat to our security. Only a third believed we should impose sanctions on Russia.
- This diary is based on the weird notion that "as many as" 20 percent of the electorate are considering casting a vote for a third candidate. Really? The number of undecided voters in just about every poll rarely exceeds 12 percent. And even still, is there any basis for believing this 12 percent is anything other than undecided?
- You made a grand pronouncement regarding Obama's inability to break the 50 percent number. Someone asked you how many recent presidential victors broke that barrier. The question, like all the others, remains unaddressed.
Sorry, man. But I just don't get the point of this exercise. At least make some small attempt to defend your thesis.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )that I'm racially prejudiced against white people, Harley? ;)
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| parent )So. Once again you ignore legitimate questions about the data that, in theory, supports your latest enfilade and a couple that preceded it. And -- in a comment to Hank above -- continue to hurl out hyperbolic statements supported by nothing other than your own inchoate bitterness. Now we're to believe that Obama and McCain have betrayed their friends and colleagues in a manner previously unheard of in the political realm. "Not even Nixon!" you rage.
Sorry, pal. But this sickening spectacle, like most of the political analysis that preceded it, seems to exist only inside your head. But again, I'm open to any attempt you might make to actually support your argument. I don't expect it at this juncture. But hey, hope springs eternal.
(Oh. And I'm saying that using 'half-white' as a pejorative is an example of what happens when anger makes you lose control of your own rhetoric. It's not racist. It's just unfortunate.)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )he's just disappointed, there's nothing wrong with that. No candidate is ideal, sometimes it just takes a while to recognize it. And "inchoate bitterness"? Sounds more like run of the mill bitterness to me.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )My complaint, aired repeatedly, is that he's basing this stuff on some wildly inaccurate statements, and when asked to back them up, simply comes up with new ones -- eg the line about betrayal and the two candidates.
I get that he's disappointed. Lots of folks get disappointed with politics. I just find the hyperbole to be a little unhinged, not to mention counterproductive.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )"The haughty half-white Obama."
Oops. Gave away the game.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Mary Landrieu?
Sarah Palin!
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)I think you are projecting your distaste for Obama on the "general public". And your inability to spell his name.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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)aren't gonna vote for him--at least not in any poll so far. Great going for convention-eve.
However, your point about my typo is well-taken. For the sake of accuracy, I'll leave the error intact ;)
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| parent )for popularity, tell us how many candidates in recent elections have met this lofty mark?
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )