Mid-Week Open Thread


This will help with the hangover.
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Freep freep freep freep FREEEEEEEEP (#135662)
by stillnotking

Please enjoy the comments on this thread, "Boycott of FOX News". Warning: do not attempt to drink anything at the same time. (h/t DKos)

I agree. I’m tired of their slant towards the left.

I will still probably watch Hannity, who has carried the water.

Rest assured that someone at FOX is monitoring this very thread and that it is quite troubling to them...

I am going for the Triple Dog Boycott....

I watch the Weather Channel often - to actually get the weather - but they are very liberal and promote “climate change” as part of their agenda. Be warned.

The problem with FOX is that they are pandering to people that truly want fair and balanced. We conservatives want the truth.

Besides this slamming of Palin, a couple nights ago, didn’t one of the Fox people call FreeRepublic a “hate site”?

Also, I suggest freepers send complaints about Shep Fag to foxnews.com. Also, perhaps some NY Freepers can get photos of Shep and his boyfriend and post it online.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

My favorite? (#135674)
by aireachail

Who will know if I don’t tune in?

Some good stuff in there!

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Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Red Alert (#135521)
by Spartacvs

Democrats who are attempting to STEAL a Senate seat they LOST

I understand that ACORN are said to be somehow involved in the mandatory state recount.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

You forgot the best part (#135524)
by HankP

Norm Coleman NEEDS your help and if you despise the Democrats as I do you will help!

After he says he sent $5. So I guess he despises the Ds $5. worth.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Perhaps he was tapped out (#135526)
by Spartacvs
It's Weird, People Still Swear By Palin...the Next Coming....! (#135530)
by Traveller

...are my friends crazy, or what?

Or, do I need a better class of friends....lol

Of course, they may simply support this smiling crone because they know how much she scares the living bejebus out of me.

Seriously, that woman is...

is....

is....

is....Unqualified....lol...for anything.

Best Wishes, Traveller

It's actually a pretty simple metric. (#135573)
by Punditus Maximus

If they're sexually satisfied, they can adequately assess Ms. Palin.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

"swear by" (#135540)
by Pranky

There's always people who will hold ignorance and narrow mindedness in esteem. These are the true remaining palin fans.

For smarter republicans, the defense of her helps flesh out the narrative that conservatives are always under attack by a more powerful outside liberal force. Never mind any of her faults. Persecution syndrome. She's a useful example for their cause. I don't think even vaguely intelligent conservapublicans give a hoot about her past being useful in this way.

There's also the angle that the worse she looks or is perceived as being, the worse mccain and the republican party looks. Mccain and the republicans chose her as VP candidate. They are ultimately responsible for this.

Sarah palin is the same person she was a year ago or two months ago, and they picked her.

The siren! (#135522)
by athenas owl

Hasn't anyone clued Redstate in on the fact that "the siren" has become parody?

Sorry, I didn't read the article...but I figured it was about the MN race. Ain't there some "quaint" Mn law about recounts in a race this tight?

Yep (#135525)
by Spartacvs

As I understand it, under MN election law a recount is automatic in an election this close if one side requests it.

Also:

Klansman quits post ahead of inauguration of Black man

Can you guess that one without looking?

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Oh my... (#135529)
by athenas owl

I would have thought it was Free Republic, but no.....

Appalling really. What the bejeezuz happened to that site?

What happened to RedState? (#135547)
by Jay C

Simple, IMO. Some political sites become lame, sterile echo-chambers over time in the natural course of blog-evolution: the "moderators" at RedState seem to have decided to deliberately speed up the process by blamming away anyone and everyone who might ever question (even in the smallest detail) the right-wing Received Wisdom, as adjudged by the Holy Prophets editors. And thus roil the serene pond of their smug self-righteous assurance about the "correct" political attitude.

I found the following gem from the linked post re the MN Senate race (to a commenter questioning the poster's call for donations) to be a perfect example of the RS mindset:

"...and with no due respect you are entitled to spend your money where you want BUT don't dirty up my post with your displeasure!"

I really wanted to add a comment asking if the poster's attitude would have been quite the same if it were Norm Coleman, rather than Al Franken who was behind by 221 votes: but my (years-old) registration seems to have been lost in the recent conversion to RS 3.0 - although I still receive their email "alerts" (sans sirens, though).

Try him as an adult!! (#135517)
by Elagabalus

That'll learn 'im!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

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I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

Charging an 8 Year Old With Murder?!? (#135520)
by Traveller

The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.

****

Everybody loves the draconian laws...makes them feel all warm and fuzzy...(and assuages their own murderous-ness...ahem)...but this is stupid.

Note that the Non-Custodial mother just visited the child and left to go back to Mississippi.

Human beings....I guess he's not too happy he won that custody battle.

Traveller

Let's Hear The Whole Story, Please (#135548)
by M Scott Eiland

If a local DA is willing to buck what will probably be a tidal wave of skepticism and abuse to file such charges, there's probably a rather compelling reason for it. If it can be shown that an eight year old actually had the mens rea for premeditated murder, and no viable affirmative defenses, I really *don't* want the little S.O.B. running around loose any time soon because people would rather depend on their emotions and a calendar rather than the facts and logic to determine what should be done with an eight year old cold-blooded murderer. In such a case, the Old Yeller rule ("Yes, it's very sad--now shoot him.") applies, though in this case permanent confinement would do the job.

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If people determine the kid is a genuine danger (#135563)
by catchy

to himself or others, he should be in confinement.

But what determination could show that an 8 yr. old deserves to be shot?

I assume an 8 yr. old can plan, but are they really capable of choosing between right and wrong?

When I was 8, my view of people + my relation to them was almost solely a product of my environment. And sometimes there were lessons I had failed to fully pick up from my environment.

I stole a bunch of baseball cards when I was about 10. I planned it, but I don't think the appropriate response was to treat me as an adult. I was teachable.

I can't really see the cog. development of any 8 yr. old as warranting full culpability for a crime.

Stealing Baseball Cards. . . (#135566)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .isn't premeditated homicide. Again, proving an eight year old had the legally required state of mind to be convicted of murder one is a pretty tall order; however, if the prosecution can do it and there's no defense available (say, the child had been imprisoned and abused for long periods of time and seized an opportunity to escape, or was found to be legally insane*), then I want him out of society--and I really don't give a rat's @$$ about what a calendar has to say about it. Literally shooting him is off the table, thanks to the Supremes, but if he's guilty and had the ability to realize what he was doing, he needs to go away for good.

*--and that option should result in the kid being gone until a long line of experts can certify that he isn't going to blow up again.

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well I didn't kill anyone til I was 14 (#135571)
by catchy

so that's the best I could offer.

Again, it might not be hard to show planning, but I don't think a sob story of neglect and abuse should be necessary to avoid adult punishment.

The mere fact that the kid is 8 speaks to his cognitive development + the time he's had to soak up moral rules and evaluate them.

That doesn't strike me as an arbitrary lunar-based distinction.

This presupposes alot. (#135584)
by Bernard Guerrero

the time he's had to soak up moral rules and evaluate them

If outcomes were predetermined merely by "the time avaliable to soak up rules", we wouldn't see the variance we do in real life. You'll object that environments aren't equal, which is true, but there's been solid work showing hereditary predispositions to sociopathic behavior, schizophrenia, etc. The kid might just be a grenade that went of prematurely.

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The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Yes ... (#135552)
by Elagabalus

Let's! Of course, the DA might be a little unwilling to file anything once he finds out that the questioning officer didn't bother to inform the child of his rights and extracted "a confession" without a lawyer present. I mean, if you gonna play hardball ...

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I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

That Would Be A Problem. . . (#135560)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .with a case with any defendant. Again, if the kid isn't guilty of premeditated murder, he shouldn't be charged with it--and the cops should know better than to screw around with procedure with cases involving a minor.

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Should know better. (#135574)
by Punditus Maximus

I assume you're in favor of extremely strong sanctions, including criminal charges, against any cops involved in forcing a confession out of a kid, then.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Absolutely (#135576)
by M Scott Eiland

Assuming that we're talking about the circumstances of this case (or a similar domestic case), and not another diatribe about alleged interrogation tactics abroad.

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Yes. (#135589)
by Punditus Maximus

We're talking about not just Americans, but "real" Americans. Good to know there's a line somewhere.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

What "alleged interrogation tactics"? (#135579)
by HankP

The fully documented ones, or the ones the Bush admin still refuses to release? I can't believe you're still carrying water for those sick sociopaths.

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I blame it all on the Internet

OK the election is over (#135433)
by catchy

where in hell are Kierkegaard + Ken White?

I was promised old smart guys! I demand old smart guys!

Emails have been sent already (#135447)
by HankP

I was thinking of sending some more, like to Macallan.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Tell him PM got suspended! (#135453)
by catchy

and thanks for all yer efforts behind the scenes, Hank.

Suspend everyone in rotation, (#135460)
by mmghosh

manufacture the reasons later.

Ha! (#136105)
by Sulla

That could be a lot of fun. We could call it virtual rendition.

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"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

Double post (#136104)
by Sulla

stupid computer.

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"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

Redstate Petition! (#135264)
by Harley

The angry horde over at Redstate now has a petition you can sign vowing to work against the interests and future employment of any McCain staffers who criticize Sarah Palin past, present, and future.

Needless to say, Brainless Douchebag from Wingtardia, Alabama is on board.

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

I see the words but can't read the sentence. (#135435)
by tomsyl

Is it possible to take quart-sized biopsy samples while acting as your own pathologist?

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Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

This Should Be Fun (#135202)
by M Scott Eiland

Apparently, Obama is considering appointing the nuttiest of all the Kennedys as the head of the EPA. I wonder what would be the high point of the confirmation hearings: recounting the 2004 "we wuz robbed!" conspiracy theory he pimped, having him explain why he thinks vaccines cause autism, or the fact that he's a Chavez groupie? What's next--Cindy Sheehan as Secretary of Defense?

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An extremely bad idea. (#135436)
by tomsyl

He is a Very Angry Man, guaranteed to hugely politicize EPA. And largely ignorant on the subjects he blathers about (though he's an expert on the visibility and aesthetics of ocean wind farms in the Nantucket area iirc). Maybe when they tell Kennedy he can't use his private jet as a govt. employee, he'll change his mind.

Every person listed sounds like they could bring a largely political agenda to what supposedly is largely an enforcement position. This isn't exactly the best point in the economy to begin closing down powerplants and increasing CAFE by 15 mpg.

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Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

I Thought Patrick Kennedy was the Nuttiest Kennedy (#135265)
by Harley

C'mon, man. Be consistent.

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Patrick? (#135365)
by M Scott Eiland

The only time I remember seeing him in the news was when his cousin was in deep doo-doo in that rape case--he's just another Democratic congressman, really. Robert Jr., on the other hand, is a nutjob of the first order and I will be positively gleeful if Obama is dumb enough to try to foist him off as a credible EPA head.

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This isn't the Bush Administration. (#135370)
by Punditus Maximus

Leaks aren't SOP.

We'll see soon enough.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

I already proposed that (#135204)
by HankP

seriously, the problem here is that Obama keeps a very tight leash on his people - remember how few campaign leaks there were? - and the press isn't used to it, so I expect a lot of rumors in lieu of actual leaks.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Record turnout? (#135157)
by Sulla

All depends on how you measure it-

”A new report from American University’s Center for the Study of the American Electorate concludes that voter turnout in Tuesday’s election was the same in percentage terms as it was four years ago — or at most has risen by less than 1 percent”

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"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

"Record turnout" (#135160)
by Jay C

Technically, it was: in terms of absolute numbers - but if the figures on this map are accurate, it IS only a couple of percentage-points up from 2004; and the 61%(±) turnout is still pretty anemic.

I'm not sure where the "130 million voters" figure, which I have seen quoted on the Internet as a sort of "given" by most of the polling sites, comes from.

I think the 130 million figure (#135164)
by Sulla

came from the age old practice of pulling things out from one's behind. I know some people waited longer than usual but I wasn't one. In 2004 I had to wait in a line that ran from town hall to main street, then turned and almost ran to the end of the block. On Tuesday there was only one person ahead of me, my dad. We were in and out in 14 minutes (we parked in a 15 minute parking zone so I was watching the clock). Admittedly though, after my experience in 2004, I took off from work a couple hours early to avoid the line.

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"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

Republicans stayed home (#135169)
by Blue Neponset

From your link:

The report released Thursday estimates that between 126.5 and 128.5 million Americans cast ballots in the presidential election earlier this week. Those figures represent 60.7 percent or, at most, 61.7 percent of those eligible to vote in the country.

“A downturn in the number and percentage of Republican voters going to the polls seemed to be the primary explanation for the lower than predicted turnout,” the report said. Compared to 2004, Republican turnout declined by 1.3 percentage points to 28.7 percent, while Democratic turnout increased by 2.6 points from 28.7 percent in 2004 to 31.3 percent in 2008.

If Republicans hadn't been so dispirited by their chances they might have gotten the total over 130 million. As it was, 128.5 is pretty close to 130, so I don't think those numbers were pulled out of anyone's rectum.

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But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie

Sure they were (#135171)
by Sulla

128.5 is the high end estimate for the actual turnout, which is still 1.5 million behind of what was suppose to be a given.

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"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

I propose a moratorium (#135229)
by Jay C

on discussions of the 2008 vote numbers until a bit more time has passed (say, til the EC actually meets); since it's obvious that the various counts and recounts (MO, frex) are going to take a few days, at least, to get resolved.

Nate at fivethirtyeight "estimates" that there are still something around 3 million "missing" votes as of today (11/7); his figures are suspiciously precise though, so I surmise SWAG origin, but it's obvious that the final count for 2008 won't be really "final" for a week or so.

Not that irrelevant data has ever stopped us Forvmians from discussions.....

A modest 2% increase over the participation in 2004 (#135256)
by Spartacvs

looks to be the most likely number.

Right now the turnout total using the NYT's numbers is 122.8M with an estimated 1.8M+ votes still outstanding, mainly from CA CO OR and WA. Making the current estimated turnout for 2008 around 123.6M, which would be a 1.9% increase on 2004's number and an 18% increase over 2000.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Now Sarah Palin May Think Africa is a Country (#135136)
by Harley

But it may also constitute the most successful part of President Bush's legacy. John Cole gives praise where praise is due, here.

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Proof that no-one is all bad: (#135180)
by JKC

Whatever else you want to say about Bush (and I've got lots of bad things to say), he did right by Africa.

And his comments on Islam (#135203)
by HankP

if he let that stuff go by unchallenged, it could have become really ugly. It did get really ugly anyway, but fortunately only with the fringe.

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I blame it all on the Internet

That really was my one point of gratitude. (#135209)
by Punditus Maximus

Well, that and diesel standards for trucks. I've been leery of Bush's Africa policy; I keep waiting to hear about how the stuff was tainted by this or that or how the no-bid contracts went to Bush's cousin's girlfriend, or . . . I'm starting to finally believe that something good happened, I guess.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Here's Some Scary News (#135133)
by Harley

Mike Huckabee is making his first post-election visit to the all-important primary state of Iowa...

...in about two weeks. I kid you now. And who'll be arriving shortly thereafter? Bobby Jindal.

Sweet Jeebus. Don't we at least get to swear in the new Prez before the next campaign starts?

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

We need a Campaign Channel. (#135178)
by Bernard Guerrero

All campaigns, all the time. That way I can direct my DVR to ignore it.

(Anyway, what do you expect? The Presidency is worth big bucks on the basis of the Plum Book alone. Why wait on laying the groundwork?)

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The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Be thankful they waited til after the election nt (#135140)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Clockwork (#135114)
by M Scott Eiland

Greg Maddux wins his 18th Gold Glove award--extends his major league record.

Maddux has been my favorite player for years now, but IMO he won this award on reputation--there has to be a better fielding pitcher than him somewhere in the Show by now. If he doesn't retire--as he is apparently leaning towards doing--he'll probably keep winning the award until he stops pitching 180 innings in a season.

The Dodgers say they'd love to have him back, and even if he does retire he could have a job as a pitching coach anywhere he wanted, assuming he doesn't decide to simply take it easy for a while. I'm looking forward to finding out which option he's picking.

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So I Have a Headache, Something I Don't Have Often, But Today (#135113)
by Traveller

...all day, stress and pounding. Lots to do, lots to do tonight so I'll keep going but I took a break to see a little of the VT Maryland game...and Lou Holtz, Dr. Lou said at halftime:

You tell people your problems and 90% of them don't care, and the other 10% are happy that you have them.

It just seemed profoundly true to me, so I pass it along.

Aggghar...

Best Wishes, Traveller

A map (#135104)
by Pranky

of your republican party holdouts:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/zell-miller-was-right-sort-of/

Notice a pattern?

Steve Sailer noticed one (#135381)
by stillnotking

Apparently it's because there is a high proportion of "pugnacious Scots-Irish" in those areas, and they recognized McCain as their "champion".

The fact that the Appalachians and the Ozarks are the only parts of the country where the Klan still has any real influence can doubtless be attributed to the residents' cotton-heavy fashion sense.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

This might sound stupid, but I never thought of that "Mc" (#135434)
by tomsyl

in his name in that or any other context, or in fact at all. So the Scots-Irish fealty is a surprise to me.

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Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

It's more than holdouts (#135106)
by HankP

it's places that became more Republican under Bush. Appalachia, the Ozarks, and the newly de-blackified south Louisiana.

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I blame it all on the Internet

It's the Bible belt (#135385)
by catchy

Ex. A:

Ex. B:

Here's another one for you (#135482)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Careful of cost of living, tho. -nt- (#135511)
by Punditus Maximus

.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Love the Maps, My Take...A Sea Change? Not So Much... (#135518)
by Traveller

(a conservative friend is in despair over this loss...{damned if I know why, I think the Republic has been saved} but this is my response to buck his spirits up)

...I think it more a question of demographics than anything. Voter turn out was not much bigger in 2008 than in 2004, which truly surprised me....so for me to go around saying that the young people finally voted is simply Preposterous and untrue.

I'm wrong in this.

What did happen, I think, is that a lot of people died in the years from 2004 through 2008....and a lot of people came on line voting-wise....not born, but became 18 or over.

They voted in the same proportions of the population...but it was a slightly different population.

You problem is that this trend will continue....the overall population becoming more liberal....simply because of when they grew up.

We are Post Viet Nam War generation now, Post Korea even, especially a Post WWII Generation...someone new has taken over.

Were I you, I'd look to Europe for Right-ist Governments being elected there for my ideas and what they are doing correctly to connect with the public.

Best Wishes, Traveller

Winston Churchill once said (#135531)
by BlaiseP

if a man isn’t a Liberal when he’s young, he has no heart. If he isn’t a Conservative when he’s old, he has no sense.

I’m not sure this is a mandate for anything but Change Itself. Inevitably, when things get bad, the American voting public gives the Democrats a turn behind the wheel. When things get better, they put a Republican back in.

Even a few more percentage points of voter participation is a startling improvement. In overwhelming numbers, the youth vote went Liberal according to the Churchill Effect. It’s been a long time since any politician aroused the level of fervor of Obama’s supporters, though Jimmy Carter had a surprisingly dedicated following who sounded and acted along similar lines. Carter was a good man but a lousy politician: elected because he was a Washington Outsider, he never learned to conduct the orchestra of policy. Obama seems to have learned the lessons of failure in both Clinton and Carter.

Obama may not have learned from the lesson of LBJ, another president who wanted to change the world and got caught in an intractable war stirred up by his predecessor. There is no easy answer to the problem of terrorism, as there was none for the threat of Communism. Every option is fraught with downsides. If we go after the Taliban with missiles, the Taliban will revenge itself on the nascent democracy in Pakistan. If we accede to the Taliban, we only embolden them. If we attempt to solidify the Kabul government at the expense of the warlords, we recapitulate the failures of the Russians. If we side with any of the warlords, we create more havoc. As with LBJ’s Great Society, overseas problems may overshadow any domestic accomplishments.

On the domestic front, no good options are on the table, either. We face the problem of Richelieu and the Rope Makers. In the time of Louis XIV, every great power needed navies and ships required miles of rope. Richelieu set the poor of France to making rope, and almost bankrupted the legitimate rope making industry of Europe. When they petitioned the king, Richelieu was summoned and he came to the conclusion it’s a zero-sum game: every worthwhile job created by the government eliminates that job from the private sector. We cannot easily government-ize our way out of this recession.

Europe is a poor example for us on this side of The Pond. The rightist governments of Europe promised market reforms and solutions to their immigration problems. They have not always delivered on their promises: at any rate, all the governments of the free world are thrown together in the lifeboats as the great ship of investment banking slides below the waves, its propellers still slowly spinning.

Dark days are ahead of all of us. FDR attempted to inoculate the free enterprise system with the vaccine of socialism, but it wasn’t until the advent of WW2 that the economy actually began to recover. We now face a set of problems hitherto unknown: a new axiom of capitalism has been discovered, or perhaps re-discovered. Greenspan in his testimony before Congress said markets do not always operate in their own best interests. This is a bitter pill to swallow for many Free Marketeers.

There must be some Middle Way, but it is not clear what reforms are best. We simply haven’t been here before, and there are no landmarks for triangulation. The public has no solutions either: connecting to them is no guide: the short-sighted public was overwhelmingly against any bailouts. If this recession drags on for years, the public which elected Obama will turn against him.

No He Didn't! (#135534)
by Harley

My father-in-law is big on the Churchill quote, if only to ratify his point of view. It bugged me, I looked it up, and apparently, or at least possibly, this is one of things he didn't say.

“Conservative by the time you’re 35″
“If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.” There is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this. Paul Addison of Edinburgh University makes this comment: “Surely Churchill can’t have used the words attributed to him. He’d been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?”

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Well, be that as it may, I am the reverse as well, (#135537)
by BlaiseP

a Conservative in my youth, a Liberal in old age. But live and learn, I say, good catch.

I believe this is what you're looking for (#135538)
by HankP

"Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." - Francois Guizot

LINK

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I blame it all on the Internet

A Grateful End to the Worshiping of Incompetence.... (#135532)
by Traveller

...which is of course what President Bush was from Day 1, in everything.

That people would support, follow and vote for him....was and remains just astonishing to me.

Be that as it may...Obama is at least smart.

We'll be Okay.

I've seen lots of economic downturns...our job remains to live well.

And happily, regardless....(that's the part I'm having a problem with)

Best Wishes, Traveller

Bush had a lot in common with LBJ, and more than Texas. (#135542)
by BlaiseP

When LBJ came to office, under the horrible circumstances surrounding the murder of JFK, he felt obliged to continue JFK’s policies. Eisenhower had investigated the insurgencies in SE Asia and concluded there was no winning a land war in SE Asia unless we were prepared to stay for hundreds of years.

Bush43 may have been a fool, but he is a lot smarter politically than it might seem at first. So was LBJ. LBJ, it’s said, never read a book for pleasure. He was a politician, that’s all he cared about, it consumed his whole life -- that and Cutty Sark whiskey, LBJ was a prodigious alcoholic until the day he died.

All LBJ ever wanted was for people to love him, and he’d do anything for that love. He had a heart for the poor and lowly, he was a fundamentally decent man who used the most ruthless and unprincipled techniques to solve any problem if he could. Bush43 promised compassionate conservatism, for the same reasons. As bad as Bush was and is, he tried to stick to his ideals, no matter what it cost him.

But whose ideals were they? In LBJ’s case, there was no question the Communists were out to dominate the world. Korea, Czechoslovakia, the French debacle at Dien Bien Phu, there were plenty of hard-liners within the Democratic camp and many more in the Republican camp. So Johnson got the Wise Men together to think through the war in Vietnam, everyone gave him the go-ahead. We had to stand up to Communism somewhere.

We all know how all that ended up. Eventually, after Tet in 68, even the Wise Men gave up the pretense. There was Johnson, all alone, with tens of thousands of dead Americans on his hands, with nothing to show for it.

Bush went to war in Iraq for many of the same reasons. His father and Clinton had left him with an intractable siege. Oh, I’ve been the worst among you all here, saying there weren’t any WMDs, this war was based on a pack of lies, and it’s true as far is it goes, but it’s not the whole truth. There’s no getting around the problem of Saddam Hussein: he had to go. The siege, (I don’t bother with the euphemism of Embargo) was a costly and ineffective tactic: it never got rid of Saddam and reduced Iraq, one the most educated and middle-class society in the Middle East, to a third world nation.

Bush, like LBJ, was badly advised by hard-liners. This war in Iraq is too large a catastrophe to be the work of a single pair of hands. Was Bush incompetent? In retrospect, allow me to say No. Bush followed the advice of his generals and advisors, to the letter. He didn’t meddle in the prosecution of the war itself. If Bush was incompetent, it was only to the extent that he trusted the wrong people. Bush was a pragmatist: he would listen to both sides of an argument then decide in favor of one side or the other. Bush didn’t play half-a-loaf with anything.

We do not know how history will judge George Bush. Everyone remembers Grant the great general, nobody remembers Grant the incompetent president who ended up swindled and bankrupted. History may be kinder to Bush43 than we now suppose. If it emerges, as I strongly believe it will, that the war in Iraq did break up the logjam of Strong Man dictatorships, and give rise to a new era of more representational government, his own war will be viewed as a failure but the results will be seen as successes. Perhaps he will be a Republican version of LBJ, I wish the man well, I truly do, for though he failed, he failed greatly, and if his means were ignoble his ideals were not.

Ha (#135523)
by HankP

you have a funny way of cheering people up. "See, what happened is all the conservatives like you are dying off and all the young people are more liberal, so this is just the beginning."

Remind me to not talk to you if I'm ever down about something.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

The youth vote was significant (#135519)
by Spartacvs

and decisive. Not because of their number per se, but because they voted heavily in favor of Obama in sufficient number to overpower all the old codgers voting for the old codger.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Nice (#135388)
by HankP

too bad you couldn't get a county level map of the second one, it would probably be an even better fit.

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I blame it all on the Internet

I wouldn't read too much into the AK vote (#135399)
by Spartacvs

just yet either.

Something fishy going on up there:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/11/alaska_turnout_results_raise_q.html?hpid=news-col-blogs

http://shannynmoore.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/alaska-on-ebay-election-numbers-update/

According to the NYT vote tabulation, with 99.3% of the vote counted in AK the turnout stands at only 221k. In 2004 turnout was 313k and in 2000, 285k. Most states witnessed an increase in the turnout this year, but of those states that are reporting a reduced turnout AK's 29?% reduction from 2004's number seems to stand out. The next highest? NY and UT indicate a 5% reduction, WV and OH 6%.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

That is strange (#135405)
by HankP

especially with the governor running, counter-intuitive at best.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Don't forget the newly-depopulated... (#135390)
by Punditus Maximus

...southern Louisiana. Gee, I wonder if anyone predicted that particular silvery-white lining.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

And eastern Mass, apparently. - nt (#135376)
by Bernard Guerrero
Uh, sure (#135383)
by HankP

if you want to read the map and take that away as the most important trend it highlighted, feel free. Seeing as how MA is so liberal, I would take it more as a slight fallback from the vote for their own Senator last time around.

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I blame it all on the Internet

From the P. Joseph Goebbels School of Journalism... (#135054)
by Jordan

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2008/11/06/odd-job-matthews-says-his-role-make-obama-presidency-success

CHRIS MATTHEWS: Yeah, well, you know what? I want to do everything I can to make this thing work, this new presidency work, and I think that --

JOE SCARBOROUGH: Is that your job? You just talked about being a journalist!

MATTHEWS: Yeah, it is my job. My job is to help this country.

Look, I get it. This guy is about entertainment, not grownup news. But while I want the Obama administration to be successful and do good things for the country (and me), I'd much prefer replacing most of the current class of journalists with people who are at least acquainted with the idea of an adversarial press.

I'm sick of teh stupid!

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Um (#135074)
by HankP

where are the journalists in the quote you put up? Not everyone on TV is a journalist.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Exactly (#135129)
by Harley

Matthews isn't a journalist. Heck, he'll probably run for the Senate in Penn in the next cycle or two. I wouldn't worry about applying lofty standards here.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

"Matthews isn't a journalist." Understatement of the month. (#135145)
by BlaiseP

Tweety is just a silly, silly man. Unctuous, fawning little twit, he grates on my nerves something awful.

Journalists are sposta dig out the truth, get to the heart of the matter. Tweety might once have been an actual journalist, but once they put the pancake makeup on that cherubic, pudgy little face, he completely abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity.

Yep. (#135210)
by Punditus Maximus

Which leads to the question -- why does anyone watch?

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Because the media have never.... (#135378)
by Bernard Guerrero

.....been about information per se. They've been about confirmation. Comfort food for the soul, if you will. From day one, mind.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Good guests (#135212)
by HankP

he really does get better guests that most of his competitors.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Also, he's good at irritating politicians (#135250)
by stillnotking

into giving immoderate responses; see Bachmann, Michelle. It's his sole virtue, really.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Disagree Jordan...Even Start of Bush's 2nd Term I Said Here... (#135060)
by Traveller

...I want it to be successful; for himself, but more even for us as a nation.

I listened to Bush's acceptance speech in 2004 and he said he had political capital and he was going to spend it.

Okay, whereas I wished him, and by extension myself well, I soon saw and should have seen in that election morning speech that it was always about him...not about the country.

I would hope that we all want a successful Obama Presidency.

That is all...Smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

Best Wishes, Traveller

Polls to watch (#135021)
by Sulla

Rasmussen rules Zogby drools (but not as much as Newsweek).

--

"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss

Yep (#135031)
by M Scott Eiland

In making my prediction, I used Rasmussen's state by state projections, then made the most optimistic assumptions possible for McCain. It didn't work, of course, but he was certainly the starting point.

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Wouldn't really want to be Gallup either. (#135029)
by Jordan

Since you mentioned polls, I'll just add yet another shout out to Nate Silver and the team at fivethirtyeight.com. Editorial content is very pro-Democrat, but the polling data, aggregation & analysis was an order of magnitude more sophisticated than anything from professional news organizations.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Give Harley Credit On This One (#135030)
by M Scott Eiland

He spotted Mr. Silver before anyone here--probably because of the baseball connection. Sabermetricians rule!!! :-)

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Thanks, Harley! I knew better than to cross (#135034)
by Jordan

sabermetrics with you guys on the prediction thread. :)

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

What the f*** is wrong with those Southerners?? (#134930)
by tomsyl

I came to something at the end of a New York Times article on Cal Prop 8 that just blew me away. Here it is, with my emphasis:

Among the more unusual measures on this year’s ballots was one in Florida that would repeal an old clause in the state constitution that allows legislators to bar Asian immigrants from owning land. The repeal would be symbolic, as equal protection laws would prevent lawmakers from applying the ban. With 78 percent of precincts reporting just before 11 p.m. Tuesday, the vote was close, with 52 percent voting to preserve the clause.

Words fail me.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Under an equally obscure Florida law (#134968)
by stillnotking

cockroaches larger than a certain size get the vote.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

They're still smarting (#134938)
by DNR-DC

about losing the war to a bunch of city folk and immigrants 143 years ago.

--

All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and I'm fine.

Maybe, but c'mon, this is just nuts. (#134943)
by tomsyl

Just freaking nuts. Maybe the story is a hoax.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

There's a reason (#134937)
by HankP

that fark.com has a "Florida" tag for their more bizarre news stories. They should change their license plates slogan to "America's Asylum".

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I blame it all on the Internet

Florida: (#134951)
by Punditus Maximus

America's Wang

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Bluehairs, dry rot and Disney World (#134952)
by BlaiseP

Never worked out the appeal of Flawda.

Some parts are beautiful (#134963)
by HankP

I spent a week in Ft. Myers/Sanibel Island/Captiva Island when my father-in-law lived there. Beautiful beaches. But I'd never live there.

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I blame it all on the Internet

I thought Venice Beach was really nice. (#134967)
by tomsyl

But then I drove there from Miami, which was, uh, not as nice.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

A large part of Florida (#134958)
by Pranky

is Deep South. Away from the coasts, north of Palm Beach, and minus Orlando... it's the Deep South.

Right you are. Basically south Georgia only more so. (#134966)
by BlaiseP

Miami, ecch, that's the Third World to me. Every time I go down there to see my brother in law, I spend 100% of the time in Spanish.

I lived in South Miami Beach (#134970)
by Pranky

for five years back in the 90s. It was a great time to be there and be in your 20s. But I agree, Miami in general is 3rd world in many ways.

57 (#134925)
by Pranky
What I find interesting is that (#134941)
by Weyland

No one (AFAICT) is reporting on how well the Constitution party candidate did in that race. Dave Brownlow pulled in around 5% of the overall, which I believe is a better showing for the Constitution party than anywhere else in the country this election season.

I think most of the independents were going to vote for Merkley anyway, so Smith's choice to run left cost him the overall.

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For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin

I know it's petty (#134927)
by stillnotking

but I'm so glad to see Gordo get beat. He wasn't a horribl