Surprising no one who was paying attention,
it turns out there were some RNC ads already cut decrying the bailout and waiting to be played as soon as the vote was over. In fact, they're already playing, since the ad time was already bought.
Kinda puts the relative Party composition of the vote totals into perspective.
--
It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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The ad presumed passage of the bill, and the point of the ad was to say that Obama's economic plan with the bill in place would make things worse. Sounds like Ben Smith kind of missed that point as well.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)Gingrich was whipping against the bill before he was for it.
Two faced, duplicitous and sadly par for the course.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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)they were simultaneously reassuring their donor base that the tranching and salary-cap provisions would be toothless (h/t Greenwald).
Yep, overall this looks like a particularly odious play by the Republicans. Pass a bad bill, stick the taxpayers with $700 billion, then beat the Democrats over the head with it.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)last and always.
Either we beat them at the polls as Democrats or we leave the Democratic party behind and join them, with the intention of changing the system from within. I don't see another alternative that is likely to have any degree of success.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )if not for the fact that 60% of House Democrats voted for the bill. Not to mention AUMF, FISA, etc. etc. etc.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I'm pretty sure Pelosi got bamboozled, and a lot of House Dems chose to follow their leadership on an issue they didn't fully understand.
The amazing thing is that it got show down by House Repubs; somehow, the idea that spending = eventual taxation actually got through.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )why not form your own party centered around what you consider to be core principals which you would never compromise under any circumstances and call me when you've secured enough seats from beating out the representatives of both parties to get a seat at the table. Until that happens, pick a side and get in the fight.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )condescending and nasty though the delivery was. In fact I am not ignorant of the exigencies of politics; but the Democratic Party, as currently constituted, mirrors so few of my personal beliefs that voting for it would be less a compromise than an absurdity.
I have picked my side. I'm voting libertarian this year.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )you've got no one to answer to but yourself (if you're taking advise and all).
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )In the midst of an economic crisis that shows the US's understanding of the relationship between private vs. public institutions is fundamentally flawed and threatening not just our economy, but the world over ... you are voting libertarian.
Plus I remember you complaining that Biden sponsored the Rave Act. Well, Barr is just as bad in the War on Drugs.
Seriously, what's the reasoning for pulling the lever for someone who wants to privatize social security?
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| parent )He has reversed his previous position supporting the WoD. He has made similar reversals on the Patriot Act and the federal marriage amendment/DOMA. I believe his reversals on these subjects to be sincere.
In many ways Barr's political path mirrors my own: he became disenchanted with the orthodoxy of his party and ultimately came to realize he could not support them. This is not to say that I agree with him on everything, because I don't, but on my highest-priority issues (primarily civil liberties) I am convinced that he is one of the good guys. This is more than I can say for either of the major-party candidates.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )My own political path is somewhat the reverse. I voted libertarian in several elections, and have come to the conclusion that the only way to repair the system is from within. I'll join PM below in stating that I understand your position having voted that way for several elections in a row.
--Obama's support for the FISA legislaton very nearly cost him my vote. I haven't gone that far yet, but I haven't donated any money to his campaign since then. As always and by design, the only other alternatives are worse.
---
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
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| parent )by the admin. + others to railroad a quick + easy bailout.
But we're talking the 1930s here for the world economy unless we fundamentally restructure the financial sector in the near future.
Only the left can do that. Free market fundamentalism has to be sent out into the wilderness for another 50 yrs. This is no time to vote libertarian.
p.s. I trust you know what you're talking about re: barr + his updated approach to the WoD. Sorry for not stayin abreast + smearing your economically brain-dead candidate.
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| parent )I'm a free-marketer, but I recognize the need for curbs and safety nets, certainly to a greater extent than Barr does. That's one of the major areas where we disagree.
However, I am not at all convinced of the ability of the major parties, straightjacketed as they are by various interest groups, to make significant, constructive policy decisions. The Paulson bill demonstrates that pretty handily, I'd say. As everyone continually points out, politics is the art of the possible. Do you see the Democrats "fundamentally restructuring the financial system" in a way you'd approve of? Nope, me neither.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )But hopefully you've selected folks you defer to + are making decisions that are as informed as possible (I sided w. Roubini on the recent bailout but often defer to DeLong + Krugman).
You write as if economic issues are not part of the calculus of your vote. I don't understand that.
The world economy has plainly been torn asunder. Doesn't this demand that you do your best to identify what went wrong/plausible remedies? I humbly submit that more economic libertarianism applied to US financial markets is not going to help, but is rather a recipe for disaster.
You say Ds plainly won't help either. I disagree -- they haven't done horribly given their small majority + a terrible opening proposal that Dodd + Frank nevertheless improved upon.
Generally, Ds are not straightjacketed by an economic philosophy + disdain for gov.; they've been moving in the right direction on economic issues since Bush has been in office; and the party contains an influential progressive movement. ... and fer cripes sake even in its worst triangulating phase the SEC + Treasury under Clinton never looked like they do under current R leadership.
Finally IIRC, it was Biden's nom. that was the tipping pt. for you. I'm no fan either + am not afraid to vote for a 3rd party candidate. But consider that Biden voted against the Commodity Futures Modernization Act + repealing Glass-Steagall. We're just not talking Coke v. Pepsi here.
Many mainstream economists are predicting recession through 09. This isn't an issue that can be reasonably put to one side.
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| parent )Here's my position on this. First, I have my doubts that the current crisis is as bad as the hype. I may not have a terribly informed opinion on economics, but I am fairly familiar with the track record of economists... which ties into the point I was making above: I am fundamentally unsold on the ability of the federal government to effect meaningful economic control. The US economy is a beast with no masters, and does as it will. Would Obama be a marginally better handler than Barr? Maybe. Probably, if I'm being honest. But I doubt a President Barr would completely screw the pooch, either, and there's a nontrivial chance things might turn out better with him as head of state over a Dem Congress (divided government and all that).
Also, and more importantly, the economy rises and falls. Even the Great Depression only lasted a little over a decade. Civil liberties, once gone, tend to stay gone -- my greatest fear at the moment is of the US slipping into a stable authoritarian equilibrium. Almost the entirety of the human race occupied such equilibria for many centuries after the advent of nation-states. Absolutely nothing is more important to me than preventing that.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )the question isn't "can the feds control the US economy, or even steer it"? Of course they can't, by much, but that isn't the issue of the current crisis.
The question is, how much has bad/corrupt/nonexistent regulation contributed to the current crisis? The answer is a whole lot. Fancy exotic securities designed to conceal price/risk/conflict signals normally flagged by regulators combined with a culture of "deregulation" created this perfect storm. In other words, it isn't command economics or laissez faire that is to blame, but a specific mode of transformation from the former to the latter. Rent-seeking city, brother. Any time someone talks about "deregulation," see if you can spot the thieves by their elbow.
Anyhow, unfortunately massive government spending is the now the only way to get the cart out of the ditch. Well, that or allow a Great Depression II to devastate the entire economy and wait for pure capitalism to build something out of the ruins.
But there is no pure capitalism.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Actually there is, and worryingly it exists and thrives in the one place that holds the greatest potentially for causing even more mischief or worse, down the road.
In peoples minds.
Worse, it resides in the minds of people who up until fairly recently held an unprecedented lock on political power based largely on populist appeal which they are proven experts at manipulating. Power that just might be restored to them, as a result of certain exigent circumstances.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )The US economy is a beast with no masters, and does as it will.
Oh noes! That sounds like free market fundamentalism. What does that even mean? That sounds like the am radio I heard while driving across Indiana last week. 'Free markets are a force of nature! They cannot and should not be regulated!'. How could you write that? My eyes!
Even the Great Depression only lasted a little over a decade
With massive worldwide misery where this country only escaped with the aid of massive government programs in the 30s and then its largest gov. program ever in the form of WWII.
Someone has to get us out of this and it ain't going to be a libertarian. Lookit past financial crises and what has worked and what hasn't. Laissez faire isn't an option.
my greatest fear at the moment is of the US slipping into a stable authoritarian equilibrium. Almost the entirety of the human race occupied such equilibria for many centuries after the advent of nation-states.
Fair enough, but states that adopt libertarian economic approaches also tend away from liberty in the real world. You concentrate enough wealth into few enough hands and no government is going to protect civil liberties for the masses.
I submit that economic justice + liberty generally are more intertwined than you're currently portraying them.
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| parent )But I am also seriously considering voting Libertarian this year. Can we just skip the next month of campaigning already?
--For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin
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| parent )well it's a free country, for now.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )That "for now" worries me. Is coup spelled with an e on the end or not?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent ).
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )but I appreciate his position. The FISA capitulation was either a horrifying departure or a terrible harbinger of things to come. Either way, it was a big, big deal.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I still don't understand selecting the libertarian party over, say, the Green party tho.
there's also issues of economic justice and they're related to preserving civil liberties.
The telecom immunity was plutocratish. the lib. party won't address that 1% of the pop. own 40+% of the wealth. Even if Obama voted for the FISA bill he's got a tax proposal that partially addresses this type of concentration of weath. and again there's always the greens. nuts to the libertarians!
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| parent ). . .looking at the head of the Green ticket and seeing the world-class racist moron at the head of it would probably be enough to look elsewhere. Compared to Crazy Cyndy McKinney, Ralph Nader is George Washington.
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| parent )Because Lord knows, the people of Georgia's third district are committed to voting for racist morons.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I won't pass judgment on whether McKinney is a racist, but she is indubitably a moron. Why aren't I voting green? Because of the person at the top of the ticket.
Same reason I'm not voting for Nader, by the way. The guy has absolutely lost it, and it's really obvious if you hear him speak.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )in the face of what might be a multi-year, worldwide recession do you really think a libertarian should be in power?
Why isn't economics playing a more central role in determining your vote?
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| parent )I post a lot, but I'm not on 24/7. See here.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I wuz hectoring?
... And next time answer me w. a syllogism you dirty reasoner.
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| parent )Politics above all else is the art of the possible. It's not a place for dreamers, but for hard nosed realists.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )If one is choosing between a Republican and a Republican, perhaps one should wait until a Democrat (or a new Party which actually has liberals in leadership positions) shows up.
Pelosi's insanity on the bailout is another bit of support for this view. I view the Dem Party as reformable and capable of being influenced even pre-reform, mainly because of the existence of DailyKos. Others may not, and I respect that.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )As angry as I am at the R's for playing this dirty little game, on some levels I am happy that the bailout failed. I realize that something needs to be done but I don't trust anyone to fix it. On some levels I'm inclined to agree with Greenwald:
our ruling class -- the one we actually have -- is anything but wise and magnanimous. It's bloated, incestuous, reckless, inept, self-interested, endlessly greedy and corrupt at its core. [...]
Liberation from -- one could say "destruction of" -- the system run by that ruling establishment class is of critical importance. Yesterday's rejection of their decree, on such a momentous matter, was a shocking first step towards that objective (and the doom and panic of yesterday has given rise to calm and even optimism today
Whether this disaster would even be solved by this particular plan is still an open question. Accoring to Krugman will it fix anything?
No! If you buy the bad assets off the balance sheet at their market value, nothing changes on the liability side!
So though it may cost me a large chunk of my 401k, this may be best course of action. In general, I'm a big fan of object lessons to prevent people from doing stupid things. Destroying the economy may just be a enough object to prevent future mishaps.
-----
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
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)Republicans were for the bill before they were against it? So, tell me again who puts Party before Country? Or can all of the bad behavior of Republicans be justified by "Pelosi made me do it"?
I added this to Timmy's post before I saw this one.
This is on par with McCain running ads pummeling Obama and Dems on the bailout, while stating that now is not the time for blame, but rather bipartisanship to solve the crisis. What a lying humbug.
Or else he believes in the Norquist "date-rape" definition of bipartisanship.
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)