This is who we must no longer be.


Center for Constitutional Rights:

October 7, 2008, New York – Today, for the first time, a federal court ordered the release into the United States of 17 innocent Uighur men who have been imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay for nearly seven years. The men are refugees who would face persecution and imprisonment, if not death, if returned to their native China.
...
Last week, after years of litigation, the U.S. government finally conceded that none of these men would be treated as “enemy combatants.” All were cleared for release long ago. However, because of the stigma of their detention at Guantánamo and for fear of offending China, no other country had agreed to offer these men safe haven. Despite this failure to find a third country to take them, the government argued that the court could not release them into the U.S. and, therefore, that the men would have to stay at Guantanamo indefinitely.

We should not be a country which keeps men who are known to be innocent in jail. We should not be a country which does so partially to placate China. Both of these innovations are exclusively the domain of one political Party and one governing philosophy, and we must destroy both if we are to regain our decency.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

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Dolchstoßlegende (#127876)
by Macallan

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Ich bin ein Berliner. (#127986)
by tomsyl

So long as the beer and rock music at the Obama rally lasts, anyway.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

They aren't "known to be innocent" (#127676)
by Bird Dog

They are presumed innocent under the UCMJ. They trained in small arms at terrorist camps in Afghanistan, then fled to Pakistan around the time we removed the Taliban. The problem is that Bush & Co. screwed it up by flouting the Geneva Conventions. They should have been put before competent military tribunals shortly after capture to determine their status. Their status needed to be verified because they were captured by bounty hunters and delivered into U.S. custody. If they were not going to be tried in a military court, then the judge didn't have much choice.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Um, ok. (#127716)
by Punditus Maximus

I'm sure we have unimpeachable sources for where they trained, what they trained in, and what period of time they spent there.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

They admitted it themselves (#127808)
by Bird Dog

What the U.S. failed to prove was that they engaged in combat against U.S. forces. Because of this, they were judged "low risk" and were slated for release, only they couldn't be sent back to China, and no other nation would take them. We're not really disagreeing on the main subject. What I took issue with was your claim that they were "known to be innocent". Innocent people don't train in small arms at terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Confession at Guantanamo (#127918)
by Punditus Maximus

I'm sure the interrogations were taped so that we can find out precisely why and how they went about confessing -- and to what.

And people who want to protect themselves train at small arms camps wherever they get a chance to. These were folks with legitimate security concerns. I'd think a 2nd Amendment person would appreciate that.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Just a few short years ago, *we* trained those (#127824)
by Jordan

not-so-innocent people. This was a silly way to handle the problem of an irregular militia, especially in that it has weakened our moral standing worldwide. Which is all we have to offer people in exchange for supporting our cause rather than the next strongest guy on the block.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

If only that were true (#127440)
by stillnotking

Both of these innovations are exclusively the domain of one political Party

but it's not.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

We seem to have survived the Japanese confinement (#127463)
by Carlos

and the Red Scare without losing our democracy. Mistakes happen, in good times and bad. That is the real history of democracy. The real benefit of democracy is that it is a rather good auditor of itself and can usually right itself.

Your righteous indignation is helpful towards that end, but doesn't really show a full understanding of how truly vicious democracies can be. There is nothing like a mob to rip you limb from limb.

Gitmo-type behavior as mentioned above is simply a war act and such behavior should be left within war time. If the war is over, then let's shut it down, if not, it is still useful and probably helpful to all of us.

Yes, because we apologized (#127467)
by Bill White

Mistakes happen and extreme measures are sometimes needful.

However during calm future reflection, those mistakes can and should be forcefully condemned and those responsible for bad judgment punished, perhaps merely by forced retirements with pension, or worse depending upon circumstances.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

How Many. . . (#127566)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .FDR Administration officials went to jail--or even had their careers impacted negatively--due to the internment of over 100,000 Japanese-Americans?

--

That's a fair point, (#127576)
by Punditus Maximus

but to compare our actions with response to the 9/11 attacks with actions taken in response to the existential threat posed by the Japanese and German fascist regimes is nonsensical.

The problem isn't that these things happened. Because you're right, bad things do happen in extraordinary times. The problem is that so little justification was required -- that the times were so essentially ordinary.

2001 was their best year -- they killed approximately 3,000 American civilians. That made them 10% as effective as prostate cancer. But only for that year.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

And that is an unacceptable episode in our (#127572)
by Bill White

history.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Indeed It Is (#127577)
by M Scott Eiland

But it exposes as a lie the statements of those who would claim GWB administration actions are unprecedented--or even within a couple of orders of magnitude of what it has done to its own citizens in the past with precisely no consequences to those responsible.

--

I don't grok your goalposts, here (#127579)
by Bill White

Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and Bagram and Diego Garcia abuses are not the worst America has done in its history. However, those abuses are among the most gratuitous, petty and ultimately pointless.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

In a world much more connected.. (#127580)
by athenas owl

By media and communications. A whole lot of people in the world know now as it happens what was going, maybe still going on in Gitmo.

I don't know waht would happen, how it would be different, if the instant information wasn't as available. But Gitmo, etc. has harmed us "live", not in the history books.

good point. (#127571)
by nilsey

lets send some of those guys to jail too!

Very Good Point (#127573)
by M Scott Eiland

Particularly since it confirms the intellectual bankruptcy of the "GWB is the worst human rights violator EV-R!" crowd. Of course, if you want to break out a shovel and start to undo the wrong, more power to you.

--

Dubya ain't the worst (#127578)
by Bill White

merely one of the most trivial and pointless perpetrators of human rights abuses in America's history.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

I agree (#127472)
by Carlos

If, after lengthy review by Bush's successors it is commonly agreed that the decision needs to be rebuked (note that I did not say "it was not necessary"), then we should all say "Never Again".....of course, until the next time.

And thus the judicial decision diaried today (#127484)
by Bill White

is a necessary win.

SCOTUS can still bleep it all up however by reversing decisions such as these. Scalia does not strike me as someone willing to admit error easily, even for the common good.

Had Dubya been able to pull off an authentic Henry II move (reference to the Thomas Becket affair) he could have been a contender for genuine despotism however Dubya is too vain and shallow to even see the need for doing such things.

Wikipedia:

On July 12, 1174, in the midst of the Revolt of 1173–1174, Henry humbled himself with public penance at Becket's tomb (see also St. Dunstan's, Canterbury), which became one of the most popular pilgrimage sites in England.

A few years ago it became obvious to me that Bush the Younger was incapable of such nuances and thereafter I no longer feared a genuine tyranny despite continuing concern over the other harms he was inflicting on the nation.

It is a good thing when a nation's wannabe despots are also stupid. ;-)

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Regarding nuance (#127490)
by Carlos

It seems to me that Bush's lack of nuance on this issue is fully balanced by yours.

Do you not see the historical similarities between Gitmo and other wartime injustices? Can you not incorporate the necessary wartime threats and counter threats that are part of war into your understanding of why Gitmo is in existence? Why does the left continue to ignore the war status of this nation when they make judgment on our military?

"The left" (#127503)
by stillnotking

Like that bleeding-heart liberal troop-hating pinko George Washington?

"Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."

We were at war in 1775, against an entity that could fairly be described as an "existential threat", unlike the current rabble of dead-enders squatting in Middle Eastern caves and hovels. The glaring issue here is not that Americans are unusually willing to disregard our foundational principles (though we are), but that we are willing to do so when the stakes are so absurdly low.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Colonial risks were different (#127538)
by Carlos

To say that risks for Washington and risks for Modern America are the same, is to ignore technology. And it will only get worse. The car bomb, the biological weapon, the radiation bomb, the network virus, the fuel hub bomb, are all a very small step away.

The modern world of systems with all of their exposed nodes is very susceptible to sabotage. It can be badly damaged with little investment. That is what WE are fighting. Washington only had to fight the British who insisted on wearing bright red uniforms. Also, Washington wasn't trying to defend a jewel of an economy at the same time, as Bush is.

I have to add, ironically, that one of the biggest consequences from the above mentioned threats was a consumer led economic collapse leading to a serious depression.....oh well, looks like we have been able to do that without their help???????

an utter misunderstanding of reality (#127558)
by nilsey

Carlos wrote:
The modern world of systems with all of their exposed nodes is very susceptible to sabotage. It can be badly damaged with little investment. That is what WE are fighting.
...

I have to add, ironically, that one of the biggest consequences from the above mentioned threats was a consumer led economic collapse leading to a serious depression.....oh well, looks like we have been able to do that without their help???????

actually, the organization of the "modern world of systems" as you put it is quite robust and not susceptible at all to direct physical sabotage. after the 9/11 attacks, in which the WTC towers were totally demolished and a large portion of lower manhattan rendered uninhabitable for a significant period of time, actual systems --- transmission of financial information, trading, etc -- resumed before the physical plant was even back up. i know i was working in the industry at the time and was back loading missing feeds etc the very next day.

the entire point of terrorism -- let me repeat that: the entire objective of terrorist acts -- is to create in the population at large the disproportionate _sense_ of crisis and disruption.

your fundamental misunderstanding of that reality is what makes possible for terrorism to achieve its objective.

no terrorist can bring down the "modern systems of the world". but by terrorizing he or she can induce the panic states that lead to the same. and ill informed assertions like those in your comment are key to the potential for terror to have its intended effect.

Creating hysteria COULD be the point of terrorism (#127830)
by Carlos

Or it could be to destroy us. Your sense of false security is flabbergasting. Your understanding of rather creative but simple methods to cripple our exposed systems is seriously stunted.

I am a rather well trained chemist and other family members are even more highly trained technical individuals in both the software and material science side of things working for Defense initiatives. If we can sit around my living room and dream up effective, cheap, and low risk system centric sabotage methods that could be carried out over and over again, just like the cafe bombs in Israel by a small lightly funded group of a few dozen terrorists, then I grant my enemies at least the same competency.

The threat is that we enter a new era of Israel type attack frequencies. You may say that Israel is still surviving, so therefore we could as well. I agree. But, do you acknowledge the consequences? Israelis are hardened by these actions. They have become less merciful, more vengeful, and less hopeful. If you can accept that end, then you should also expect your view of Gitmo to change. In a future of Israel-Palestinian type terrorist attacks on American soil, we will view Gitmo as a Holiday Inn and Police State tactics will rule the day.

Security (#127904)
by Punditus Maximus

Since I'm still far, far more likely to die from choking on a fishbone than a terrorist attack, I think I'll concentrate on the actual threat, rather than the pants-wetting.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

let me challenge you then. (#127895)
by nilsey

here is my challenge: name a single real system node which could be utterly destroyed, causing a real physical crash of any critical system which could not be recovered in function within one week.

we saw WTC 1 and 2 fall and lower manhattan disabled for a week or more. the markets opened back up on monday 9/17/2001. the market was closed for a total of 4 business days, six actual days.

i'm not saying that local damage can't be done. and i'm not saying that that such damages can have important and real ramifications to the social fabric psychologically (if such a thing can be modeled anyways).

but the fear of terrorism is and should be the fear of such social disruptions -- not any real existential threat. the challenge is to differentiate between the two.

(edited for typos)

A challenge? (#128222)
by Carlos

Your desire to encapsulate terrorism into a neat little psycho-social cost structure is ludicrous. Much of our economy is based on wants and desires, not needs. The psychology of the people is what enables them to see value in a $100 Gucci bag or a $4 cup of coffee. Destroy their psychology of value by jumbling up the apple cart and injecting fear and the reflex to hunker down and we have destroyed several trillion dollars annually worth of economic production in this country.

Anyways, this is what I said, "effective, cheap, and low risk system centric sabotage methods that could be carried out over and over again, just like the cafe bombs in Israel by a small lightly funded group of a few dozen terrorists"

Here goes:

1) Simple consumer Estes rockets can easily pull high quality carbon ribbon over high tension wires shorting out several substations in the process. Launchers could be preset weeks in advance and triggered remotely adding a small cost to each launch but dramatically increasing system wide failures and could stretch the effects out for weeks or months.

2) Simple dispersal of biological agents through prepositioned units in Malls thereby shutting down American retail systems. One dispersal can be cleaned up easily in a week, but one dispersal every week for three months would effectively knockout the retail system.

3) Penetrating explosives aimed at our pipelines. Again one explosion can be fixed quickly and channeled around, but one everyday can not.

4)USS Cole type attacks that actually sinks a container vessel in any of our ports would increase insurance costs so much that the "terrorist tax" would be around for many years.

5)Any of our bridges could be put out of commission for months with an Oklahoma City type bomb. San Francisco has many bridges to cross the bay, but AQ's MO is to pull off simultaneous attacks. Why not knock down/seriously damage all the Bay bridges to San Francisco simultaneously?

This is far too easy. The only necessary requirement is that the rather small simple attacks be sustained over time. The use of remote control devices and remote sensing allows for the saboteurs to evade capture. Robotics enable even more creative attacks without capture.

maybe we are talking past each other on this one (#128407)
by nilsey

you:

Carlos wrote:
Y Destroy their psychology of value by jumbling up the apple cart and injecting fear and the reflex to hunker down and we have destroyed several trillion dollars annually worth of economic production in this country.

me:

no terrorist can bring down the "modern systems of the world". but by terrorizing he or she can induce the panic states that lead to the same.

i think we are on the same page on this but in a different wavelength.

what i am arguing is that system _can_ be extensively damaged and very cheaply. 9/11 and your examples come to mind. however the underlying systems are actually quite resilient.

its the social systems which break -- due to an irrational and disproportionate response in my opinion.

anyways, if terrorist attacks like those you describe were to become commonplace, i suspect the social reaction would diminish instead of amplify, as it became evident that the world did not end when a substation went down for day or so, and that a few container ships at the bottom of the port of long beach will just be joining the dozens that sink at sea from more run of the mill causes and insurance adjusters will probably adjust their rates slightly.

long comment short: terrorism bad. existential threat? only if we let it.

edit: i should amend this with the obvious: loose nuke and bio weapons would a gamechanger.

I would tend to agree with that (#128513)
by mmghosh

nilsey. Here we have terrorism all the time and it doesn't short-circuit life. Neither did I see this in the UK during the IRA activities (and I was in Warrington when it was bombed).

The 9/11 event and its reaction have been unusual in more ways than one.

Terrorism isn't as simple as all that. (#128258)
by BlaiseP

Terrorism is ultimately people and people talk. That's its weak point. Terrorism requires coordination and leadership.

Terrorism is ultimately a political movement gone wrong, an ingrown toenail on the body politic. It has all the trappings of any other political movement: objectives, a constituency, some sort of mandate. Beyond an arbitrary size, it can't be hidden. Al Qaeda tried to keep its cell size small, tried to keep its training camps beyond reach, tried to hide within friendly or unwitting societies. But they couldn't hide forever. When they struck on 9/11, they made a fatal error: they could not have predicted the USA would overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan.

They've retreated into Pakistan, where the regime is weak. They're now forced to do deals with local power structures. Their efforts in Iraq weren't viewed as they wanted them to be seen. They haven't achieved their goals, because they were never prepared to take the next step, the step Lenin and Trotsky took, to come out of the shadows to become a government.

Lenin and Trotsky failed, because they thought the Permanent Revolution was an axiom. It doesn't work that way: society endures revolution only when it's forced to the wall. One thing I've learned from Stephen Jay Gould: evolution seems to come in spurts. Something goes wrong in an ecosystem and whole clusters of systems fail. What follows is an explosion of evolution. Most of the rays of that explosion fail, but a few succeed, the best-adapted. These winners will fail in their turn when things change again. Perhaps revolution is merely evolution.

Ultimately, terrorism must go one of two ways: into autocracy of some sort or into oblivion. It's just politics gone wrong.

Ah, weren't a few people killed in the 9/11 attacks, too? (#127988)
by tomsyl

-

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

some americans and a bunch of new yorkers (#128027)
by Username

Filthy urbanites.

yes, a heck of a lot of people. (#127993)
by nilsey

whats your point?

Yes, but those tactics won't be effective. (#127831)
by Jordan

All that would stop a wave of such attacks would be completely hardening the borders and turning most American cities into barricade-style Green Zones to further protect against those who slip over the thousands of miles of unguarded frontier & coastline. Luckily, unlike Israel, we aren't surrounded on all sides by enemies.

Of course the smarter way to head off such a dystopian picture is to remove the root causes and enabling factors of terrorism worldwide, which is what we and our allies are supposedly doing now.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

We agree (#127834)
by Carlos

I never said harden our systems, I simply said that they are exposed.

I too believe that the solution comes through serious and complex international interventions to engage these faulty cultures on the ground through a good cop/bad cop technique.

Cool. I think we need to be spending more energy (#127836)
by Jordan

finding and shoring up key allies than we have been. Note that "key allies" generally does not include cooperative dictators (Musharraf) who are part of the problem, not part of the solution; this war will only be resolved by mending the differences between conservative Islam & the modern west, including delegitimizing radicals. Both cultures will have to change.

Killing terrorists and breaking countries that support them may be necessary, but is merely attacking the symptom, not the cause.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Great, let's do it together brother (#127848)
by Carlos

Can we get the Islamic world to:

-protect women's rights
-improve individual freedoms
-protect individual property rights
-secure freedom of the press
-secure freedom of political speech
-secure freedom of religion along with free religious speech
-offer secular childhood educations to everyone
-agree that cartels are illegal

You see, I'm not willing to compromise with them until most of those conditions are met. It's just the same as the EU membership programme.

Sure! (#127853)
by Jordan

-see Lebanon before the civil war
-see Iraq before the Iran/Iraq war
-see Iran before the Revolution
-see 150 million Muslims in India today
-see Islam in most of SE Asia today
-see Turkey today

What most people forget about hard-core Islamic conservatism is that it is a new phenomenon, not an old one. It is a movement that was born and began gathering strength during the wars against Israel and the divestment of British & Ottoman colonies, and only gained *political* influence beginning in 1979.

Now, what are the causes of that shift into hardcore orthodoxy? Identify them and you have the outline of a solution.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Were the Islamists who sacked Constantinople (#127934)
by tomsyl

and ravaged Europe until they were defeated at Vienna "soft-core"? That was quite a while ago, and that society represents the csaliphate today's fundamentalists want to reestablish. Saidi Arabia itself is a recent construct (built by Standard Oil, primarily) but the political and religious history (which are inseparable there) driving and motivating its jihadists is one thousand years old.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Actually, they were "soft core" (#127942)
by BlaiseP

and I wrote a diary about it

Mehmet the Great recruits every wise man in Europe to his court. He practiced religious tolerance on a huge scale.

The capture of Constantinople, the greatest city of Christianity, founded by and named for the first Christian emperor, would continue to be a problem for the Ottomans until 1453. Gunpowder and cannons changed everything. Great bastion walls were no longer impregnable. The Ottomans, slow to adopt new weapons, hire in a Hungarian engineer named Urban, who builds The Basilisk, a gargantuan cannon 8 meters long with a 75 centimeter diameter. The Basilisk fired carved stone ball projectiles weighing 1200 pounds (544 kg) about a mile. This ridiculous if terrifying contraption required several hours to load, The Basilisk had trouble hitting a target as large as a city. Ammunition, needless to say, was a problem, and the Basilisk collapsed catastrophically after six weeks of operation. Constantinople would fall, its walls still stand cracked by better cannons, but The Basilisk shows the first fatal weakness in Ottoman power, its inability to rapidly adapt to modern weaponry. Constantinople falls, not because its walls were breached, but because a gate was left stupidly unlocked.

The Ottomans were amazingly inventive warriors. Why did they fail to master gunpowder weaponry any faster than they did? It’s another fascinating mystery, for the Ottomans had access to gunpowder and Chinese technology long before the rest of Europe. Part of the answer is found in Mehmet’s own attitudes about his conquered prize, Constantinople. No sooner does Mehmet enter conquered Constantinople than he declares himself “Kaisar-i-Rum”, the Emperor of Rome.

Mehmet sets about rebuilding Constantinople, which he thought an unsanitary dump, and it was: cities get nasty under siege. Since the Crusaders had laid waste to the city, it had been a shadow of its former self, and Mehmet would change all that. The Byzantines had been buying peace with bribes and land for centuries, and the Ottomans never had to work very hard to overcome their usually disorganized enemies. The Ottomans therefore viewed themselves as organizers and administrators, war was never an end it itself, but more a series of police actions, what we might call peacekeeping, today. Mehmet, Kaisar-i-Rum, was a capable administrator and by the standards of his day, a reasonably wise conqueror. He immediately sets about recruiting every intelligent man of the day to his court, and to the Phanariots, the Greek intelligentsia who remained in the city, he grants Millet rights. Though the Hagia Sophia is converted into a mosque, Mehmet grants enormous privileges to the Greek Orthodox Church. Mehmet’s armies may have destroyed and enslaved much of Constantinople in the chaos of the siege’s end, but Mehmet himself was horrified to his core and stops the massacres with all possible speed.

Without discounting Mehmet’s horrific slaughter and concomitant destruction of much that was good and beautiful, I believe the Renaissance begins in the court of Mehmet. As Charlemagne did in his time, in a lesser way, Mehmet the Great surrounds himself with imported talent on a scale previously unknown in the world. The envious Greeks would call the Ottoman Phanariots traitors and apostates, but Mehmet kicked the bloated and impotent Byzantine world off the stage, and good riddance it was, too. Mehmet is guided by the Dream of Othman, the reunification of the world under competent and tolerant leadership, where effective bureaucracies are more important tools of conquest than armies.

The Turks were considered cruel bastards (#127952)
by tomsyl

by every Eastern European country they occupied. Slow strangulation of miscreants at major street intersections was considered an effective way of pacifying the populace. The defeat of the Ottomans at Vienna was the epochal event in European civilization IMO, not the fall of Constantinople. And what were the ancestors of today's Saudi jihadists doing while Mehmet was holding court? Any research into science would have involved Damascus steel, at the most.

And what of the Moors in Spain?

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Heh. The Turks tolerated Christians. Not vice-versa. (#127956)
by BlaiseP

Muslims were simply murdered. Maybe you need to read that diary, and do more studying on the topic. The Ottomans were a strange, multi-ethnic and religiously tolerant society, long before Europe ever contemplated the notion.

I am speaking specifically about Eastern Europe. (#127989)
by tomsyl

Are you?

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Yes, Eastern Europe. Christianity was tolerated (#127998)
by BlaiseP

and given political rights. I'm not going to defend all the Ottomans said and did, best to read that stultifying diary I linked to for a more complete picture, but yes, for over 600 years, the Ottomans practiced religious pluralism.

You want causes? (#127886)
by Carlos

The causes are simple. The Pan-Arab Islamic world went so badly after decolonization because the multi century foundation of the Pan-Arab Islamic value system is:

-- less tolerant than the West
-- more domineering than the West (against women and the other)
-- more vindictive than the West

They continue to fail within today's economic system because those traits are costly and universally abhorred.

And yet I just listed several examples (#127940)
by Jordan

of Islamic cultures that are/were

-- as tolerant as the West
-- as domineering as the West (against women and the other)
-- as vindictive as the West

Course women in the West have only been able to vote, hold public office, own property, travel unescorted, live unchaperoned, work in professional fields, attend university for about a century. Racial apartheid in America was only formally outlawed 40 years ago. The gulf you're imagining between the two cultures is more of a brook.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I agree with you on all of these. (#127900)
by Punditus Maximus

They are also why conservatism fails so badly. It is:

-- less tolerant than liberalism
-- more domineering than liberalism (against women and the other)
-- more vindictive than liberalism (War of Northern Aggression)

Areas of the country dominated by conservatives continue to fail relative to areas dominated by liberals because those traits are costly, though apparently not universally abhorred.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

One can take liberalism too far (#128024)
by Carlos

A culture can be too tolerant. Leading to lost cultural knowledge, traditions and rituals.

A culture can be too feminine. Leading to an inability to stand up against the brutal.

A culture can be too merciful. Leading to disconnects between justice and forgiveness.

My desire is not to be extreme, but to get it right.

Exactly how an Islamist would answer your charges (#128029)
by Username

Gee, great. Our culture warriors: not quite as bad domestically as wahhabists (at the moment).

You're either a proponent of tolerance, equal rights, privacy, and freedom, or you're not.

Is that like saying "you're either with us or against us" (#128482)
by Carlos

nt

No (#128501)
by Username

I'm saying that degrees of intolerance are uninteresting here. Bush's "with us or against us" is a threat to allies who don't cooperate as he sees fit. I don't care if you don't help promote tolerance -- just don't promote intolerance.

Gross oversimplification and moral relativity, (#127954)
by tomsyl

coupled with the "conservatives are evil" meme, wins you the trifecta- congrats!

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Not really. (#128051)
by Punditus Maximus

income by state (Plus DC):

New Jersey      1       66,752
Maryland        2       63,082
Hawaii          3       61,005
Connecticut     4       60,551
...
Alabama         47      38,160
West Virginia   48      38,029
Louisiana       49      37,472
Arkansas        50      37,458
Mississippi     51      34,343

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Seconded (#127851)
by tomsyl

I'm tired of the meme that Islamic fundamentalists are somehow fighting for universal principles. The way of life they want to impose ("impose", as in enforce, with arms if necessary, as in depriving people of their freedom of choice) is retrograde, contrary to the concept of the advancement of the human condition that is the philosophical goal of the West. Morality and ethics are not situational or relative in this context.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

And yet, (#127902)
by Punditus Maximus

the alternative we are offering is systematic torture, total breakdown of societal order, and foreign occupation. I wonder how we're possibly losing that propaganda war.

Maybe, if we want our ideals to win, we should consider practicing them.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

The war against the West began long before anything (#127926)
by tomsyl

you mention. It cracks me up when people try to justify Islamic fundamentalism as some sort of justified, or at least understandable, reaction to some horrible transgression by the West. I was reading a book about the possible explosion of the Yellowstone Park lava dome when the author, who was Lebanese, suddenly went off on a huge tangent about how Islamic rage against the West was based on and justified by Europe's failure to punish Germany sufficiently for The Holocaust. Yeah, right: the plight of Jews and the internal workings of Western democracies are a big factor driving fundamentalists, who secretly are fighting for freedom in the West and fairness for Jews everywhere.

Opinions on how bad we are are of no significance in the context of a clash between civilizations, between countries which actually provide religious and personal freedoms to their citizens and those who actively work to repress those freedoms. Protesters can focus all they like on reforming Western society and shouting from the rooftops about our collective guilt; doesn't matter to me so long as they stay out of the way while someone takes the defense of this country against Islamic terrorists seriously.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

There's really no justification of these things. (#127968)
by BlaiseP

I did put that bit of Auden in here which addressed that point.

It might be argued, with some degree of applicability, that the West really did start this fight. The Arabs had fought with us against the Ottomans in WW1. The West treacherously let them down (as they always seem to do in these matters) with the Sykes-Picot Treaty, replacing one set of oppressors with another. The Arab people never forgot Sykes-Picot but then they never forget anything.

In the ensuing years, the Arabs tried various pan-Arab schemes such as Ba'athism and Nasserism, but the Strong Men turned out to be a worse bargain than even the Western colonialists. The Strong Men aped the West, especially in Egypt, where Sayyid Qutb decided they must all be done away with in favor of an Islamic scheme. The worst thing possible was done: Qutb was hanged and became an unkillable martyr thereafter. His message would reach an idealistic boy in Saudi Arabia named Osama bin Ladin in due course, but the West, too had played games with Islamist jihaad, funding them against the godless Russians in Afghanistan.

I do not take sides. I see the backwardness and illiteracy of the Arabs, the plight of the refugees, now suffering in hiding in the slums of Amman and Damascus, in hovels in ethnic and religious strong points. Islamism has only been a step out of the Frying Pan of Ba'athism (which was always resolutely secular) into the nihilism and anomie of present times.

We never really believed in the Arabs, though I believe they once believed in us. Now "democracy" is a dirty word in Arabic, the preferred euphemism is "reform". We didn't believe in the Arab right to self-determination. We never learned Arabic, though it's not an impossible language to learn and they certainly were telling us what they thought. We never saw them as worth the trouble of saving, in the same way we saw the Jews.

I'm not here to cast stones or cry over spilt milk, but if nothing else emerges from this War on Iraq and Afghanistan, we'll benefit from knowing there are things we can't accomplish in the world. Especially in Afghanistan, where every empire comes eventually to die, we'll learn the brutal lessons of Coexist or Die, of Loyalty to Friends, of Hospitality to Enemies. Perhaps in time we'll regain our honor, but not soon, and not with talk of Horrible Islamic Fundamentalism. When Islamic fundamentalism served our purposes against the Russians, we thought them great guys.

I have nothing against Arab self-determination. (#127983)
by tomsyl

It's their fanatical insistence on exporting their religion and religiously sanctioned violence, repression, slavery of women, gays and all dhimmi, that needs to be fought against without quarter. I don't care about historic alliances with Arabs; they are meaningless in the current conflict. "Horrible Islamic fundamentalism" is just that. If people in Muslim countries want to enslave themselves with religion, that is their business and their problem; everyone is allowed to go to Hell in their own way. But if they want to fight the West in an attempt introduce religious dictatorships elsewhere as part of the grand caliphate, our arms should and will be raised against them. And the destruction is not likely to stop at their borders.

Israel did not start talking seriously about the destruction of Iran until Ahmadjinebad began rousing the Arab rabble with his talk of wiping the map clean. Even then, apologists like Juan Cole distorted his words with the pretense that they were mere poetry.

It always amazes me when liberals rail against fundamentalist Christians in this country, while tolerating, and even coddling, members of a religion that does not recognize secularity, and permits the enslavement or death of non-believers.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Are we on the same planet? (#128273)
by Punditus Maximus

Because seriously, about the only "exports" any Islamic fundies have tried is to attempt to run their own communities according to their woman-hating fundie law. Like the Amish. Or the Mormons. Or the Wasillans. Or Justice Scalia. Okay, that's unfair to Scalia -- he's trying to run every community according to his woman-hating fundie law.

Usually, they lose, because it turns out liberals don't hate women, so we tend to shut that sort of thing down.

In depressed times, I think that liberal Americans are under siege from two fronts -- the militant Islamic fundamentalists and the militant Christian fundamentalists (cf: The Republican Vice-Presidential candidate) who have similar societal goals but conflict on who should be in charge. Both gain a lot from the existence of the other, though, and both seem to be totally incapable of doing anything useful for their communities in defeating the other.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Ecch, they argue we're exporting Western filth. (#127997)
by BlaiseP

Now, I'm not defending any of that Muslim badness, in fact, I'm arguing that we've lent credence to these [insert favorite ugly profane plural noun here] every time we fail to treat these people with respect. Remember, I'm a Christian. I can defend Islam in theory, all day long, but I'll never defend its world view, any more than I'd try to defend the Crusaders' world view.

In point of fact, Peter the Hermit was a vicious liar who started up the Crusades saying the Christians weren't being allowed into the Holy Sepulchre. Fact is, the Ottoman soldiery were breaking up a fight between Christians. The Ottomans allowed any religious sect to form up a Millet, including Christians and Jews.

Well, here's the drill, long term. If I was Barack Obama and I wanted to put an end to this war in Iraq, the first thing I'd do is convene and fund a semi-permanent Congress of tribes and nations at the Carter Center here in Atlanta. I'd put computer scientists and enlist Google's cartography people to build up maps of identities and loyalties. Obviously, there would be huge overlaps of contested ground and troublesome pockets of ethnic minorities here and there, trapped behind "enemy lines" so to speak. Dispatch all sorts of ethnographers and linguistic specialists to do the groundwork for a fundamental reorganization of the post-colonial world.

Oh, the countries would still remain in place, though some might not. I wouldn't bet on the survival of Iraq-the-nation for more than 20 years. Palestine remains a huge problem, Iraq's refugees a problem of the same dimensions.

Now imagine if you will that these refugees were dealt with equitably. We sent the surviving Jews of Europe off to Israel and there's been no end of trouble since. Don't get me wrong, I believe Israel's got a right to exist in peace with its neighbors and nobody's more exercised about Muslim intransigence than me. But if the world spent the money to build new cities for these refugees, where they'd be tolerated, say within some ethnic conclave, with water and electricity and sewage and decent roads and communications, it would be money well spent. This Congress of Peoples would break up into working committees to solve the continuing nightmare of Africa as well.

That's my dream. The UN can't do this. Its whole premise is flawed. You can't put United and Nations in the same sentence, by definition nations are sovereign. We need a Disunited Nations, where grievances can be aired and maps drafted and the stuff of statecraft can be done. It won't be pretty, but as Bismarck said of law and sausages, best not to watch either one be made.

Back to the Crusades again. (#128009)
by tomsyl

That underscores my point that we to a degree are dealing with a society and religion bent on righting perceived wrongs from a millenium ago. Fine, whatever; just as long as they do it on their own soil, and not in London, Dearborn or wherever.

W/r/t the millet system and religious tolerance, our government could solve its deficit simply by taxing everyone in the country who isn't a Christian. They can have their own court system if they don't like it. And no building can be taller than an LAPD patrolman on a horse.

The Turks were viewed as oppressive invaders in most countries along the Danube, AFAIK. Is your argument that they were less oppressive than others?

Which Islamic fundamentalist group is fighting to impose a caliphate on others that is as liberal as you describe the Ottomans?

Is "exporting filth" the same as exporting jihadist suicide bombers?

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

We must distinguish among intolerances here. (#128021)
by BlaiseP

The genius of religious pluralism in the USA transcends the Ottoman Millet by light years. For the Muslims themselves were shoehorned into Millets: Sunni and Shiite cheek by jowl. Islam was simply the default millet.

The Ottomans failed for the very reasons they succeeded. They were a technologically superior civilization bent on imposing their will on savages, bringing peace by force. The Ottomans did not adapt well to their subject peoples. When the time came, and the Ottoman Empire sided with the Kaiser, Lawrence of Arabia was able to enlist the Arabs against them.

The Arabs were uniquely adapted to democracy after a fashion. First, they feud endlessly among each other, and most of their governance is occupied by attending to arbitrating these outbreaks of endemic violence. Islam, too, has a curious democracy within it called the umma, the equality of all men before Allah. As Christianity had been applied to the godawful Crusades, it was also used in the service of Civil Rights.

I believe, and still believe, Islam could be used as a tool in the service of the betterment of all Muslims: it does preach the equality of all humanity. No man can enter Mecca as a pilgrim without first stripping naked and wearing the white robe: within that city, the rich and poor are all alike. Though Islam's message has been twisted and perverted to evil ends by evil men, there is no wind so ill that it blows nobody any good. If Islam could be used to drive off the Russians, it could also be used to drive off any future Strong Men.

As for the Caliph and all that, that's a mighty subject. Only the Shii look for the return of the Caliph.

*Ahem* (#128000)
by AndrewSshi

Fact is, the Ottoman soldiery were breaking up a fight between Christians. The Ottomans allowed any religious sect to form up a Millet, including Christians and Jews.

Surely you mean "Seljuks?" Unless you're referring to time traveling Ottomans (which would in itself be cool).

/pedant

Yeah, I stand corrected. Seljuks is the correct term (#128007)
by BlaiseP

From my own essay:

Beginnings:

When the Ottoman Empire began, Edward Longshanks, King of England, was fighting in the Ninth Crusade with his Mongol allies, who massacred their way through Anatolia to Aleppo, driving tens of thousands of terrified Seljuk Turks before him. Edward would return to England, still in contact with his Mongol buddies, and proceed in time to murder the Jews of England. Longshanks and his ally, the Mongol Abagha are as much the fathers of the Ottoman Empire as Othman the First.

Islam had been in business as a raiding and conquering enterprise since the middle 600s, first predating on and enslaving pagan tribes, then assimilating them into Muslim society. By the time of Othman, roughly 1300, a patchwork of Ghazi emirates encroach westwards on Byzantium, the last remnant of Roman power in the East. Of the Ghazi more will be said shortly. Centered on their new city Baghdad, the largely-Sunni Abbasid Empire was disintegrating: their Turkish soldiery, the Mamluks grew restive and seized power for themselves where they could. Beginning in North Africa,, the Shiite Empire of the Fatimids broke away from the Abbasids entirely and built Cairo around 1000 AD. It’s easier to remember the empires by the cities they built: Fatimid Cairo, Abbasid Baghdad, Christian Byzantium and the Mongols built none and destroyed many. By the time of William the Conqueror, the Seljuk Turks had control of the Abbasid Empire in all but name, but clung to the ancient institution of the Caliph, for Islam had been guided by caliphs since its inception. Hulagu Khan the Mongol put a horrible end to Abbasid Baghdad in 1258.

The Ghazi Corporation:

The Ottomans emerge from the chaos created by the Mongols and Christians. After a century-long dystopia of slaughter and mayhem, the Ottomans do not so much conquer an empire as re-assemble one from the shattered fragments of several others. In Anatolia, civilization had regressed to little more than what we see in Afghanistan and Somalia today: here and there, predatory Ghazi warlords controlling tiny patches of land in the name of Islam.

Remember the "Great Game"? (#127971)
by athenas owl

The Wakhan Corridor, that peculiar finger of Afghanistan pointing to China that is not an "organic" evolution in the borders of the country but a remnant of the British. In their quest to keep that other empire, Russia, at bay.

Here's a preview of the diary I'm writing on the Great Game (#127976)
by BlaiseP

It's been stewing in the editor. I present it, unedited, from my daily writing log

Gorbachev, the Americans and the end of the world as we know it.

Friday, October 03, 2008 0403 EST. Got up far too early, but I write better prose when I do. I sit here in my green bathrobe, puffing vile cigarette smoke at the ceiling, ignoring the haruspices of CNN poring over their debate dial meter readings. I contemplate the world through Google Earth. I scroll over Central Asia from 4,000 miles above our planet, watching the labels wink into view and consider the men and women of Central Command watching their feeds from the National Reconnaissance Office as satellites swoop overhead at orbital perigee, giant cameras opening shutters at the Line of Apsides. The sum of all forces will equal mass times acceleration. What laws apply to the men and nations below? It is all perturbations and differential equations of a political sort, giving rise to a yet another fit of BlaiseP logorrhea.

Mute the TV. Listening to Tangerine Dream I recall the Emerald Table, come down to us through the medieval alchemists, probably from an Egyptian prayer to Thoth. I insert it as I learned it, for no particular reason, simply because I find it beautiful.
__

True, without falsehood, certain and most true,
That which is above is the same as that which is below,
And that which is below is the same as that which is above,
For the performance of miracles is of the One Thing.

Therefore let all obscurity flee from thee.
This is the strong force of all forces,
Overcoming every subtlety and penetrating every solid thing.
So the world was created.

My essays always start out like some gargantuan James Michener book, which all begin with the primordial ooze and Neolithic men hunting on what will later become the Chesapeake or Poland or Bergen County. This one seems be no exception.

Rewind the clock to the year 1919 and the Russian Revolution. Since the 1830s, the Russian and British empires had been warily circling each other in Central Asia, enclosing territories as the maps were drawn.

Friedrich Engels probably makes the first reference to the nation of “Afghanistan” in 1919.

The geographical position of Afghanistan, and the peculiar character of the people, invest the country with a political importance that can scarcely be over-estimated in the affairs of Central Asia. The government is a monarchy, but the king’s authority over his high-spirited and turbulent subjects, is personal and very uncertain. The kingdom is divided into provinces, each superintended by a representative of the sovereign, who collects the revenue and remits it to the capital.

The Afghans are a brave, hardy, and independent race; they follow pastoral or agricultural occupations only, eschewing trade and commerce, which they contemptuously resign to Hindus, and to other inhabitants of towns. With them, war is an excitement and relief from the monotonous occupation of industrial pursuits.

The Afghans are divided into clans, over which the various chiefs exercise a sort of feudal supremacy. Their indomitable hatred of rule, and their love of individual independence, alone prevents their becoming a powerful nation; but this very irregularity and uncertainty of action makes them dangerous neighbours, liable to be blown about by the wind of caprice, or to be stirred up by political intriguers, who artfully excite their passions.

The two principal tribes are the Dooranees and Ghilgies, who are always at feud with each other. The Dooranee is the more powerful; and in virtue of their supremacy their ameer or khan made himself king of Afghanistan. He has a revenue of about £10,000,000. His authority is supreme only in his tribe. The military contingents are chiefly furnished by the Dooranees; the rest of the army is supplied either by the other clans, or by military adventurers who enlist into the service in hopes of pay or plunder.

Justice in the towns is administered by cadis, but the Afghans rarely resort to law. Their khans have the right of punishment even to the extent of life or death. Avenging of blood is a family duty; nevertheless, they are said to be a liberal and generous people when unprovoked, and the rights of hospitality are so sacred that a deadly enemy who eats bread and salt, obtained even by stratagem, is sacred from revenge, and may even claim the protection of his host against all other danger. In religion they are Mohammedans, and of the Soonee sect; but they are not bigoted, and alliances between Sheeahs and Soonees are by no means uncommon.

The Great Game ran from roughly 1813 and the Treaty of Gulistan to the Anglo-Russian Entente of 1907. The Treaty of Gulistan ended a long-running war between Persia and Imperial Russia. Russia got much of Georgia, Azerbaijan and Dagestan. Iran got nothing. Curiously, the British ambassador Sir Gore Ouseley, a great friend of the Persian king negotiated the treaty. Britain was meddling in Persia, but Britain was meddling everywhere. Modern Iran views the Treaty of Gulistan the way we might regard Neville Chamberlain and the Munich Accords. There was no peace in our time nor was there in 1813. The Great Game would have far-reaching consequences, right into modern times.

Peace is a pretty illusion. War is the reality of man’s relationships to other men. Peace is only a hudneh, a cease-fire, clearing the battlefield, regrouping, rearming.

The Great Game ended with a de-facto partition of Persia into a Russian zone in the north, a British zone to the south and a no-man’s-land in the center. Afghanistan was delegated to the British. Tibet was allotted to China. Persia’s parliament rejected the treaty outright. The Afghan khan cheerfully ignored it. The Chinese would later use this to their advantage in their subjugation of Tibet.

Though I do not play Diplomacy here, I would presume all the players know of the Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance. With the end of the Great Game and the tidying up of loose ends between Russia, France and Britain, the stage was set for World War 1.

Friday, October 03, 2008 2252 EST.

Russia, ever the abode of schemers and plotters, began the Great Game anew in 1919. The Tsar was gone, but the geopolitical realities had not changed. Why do people and nations think these things ever change? One people cannot rule another any more than a master can truly own a slave. The conceit of it all!

____

In this, you may get some insight into the gestation of my diaries.

Ha! (#128188)
by Bernard Guerrero

Peace is a pretty illusion. War is the reality of man’s relationships to other men. Peace is only a hudneh, a cease-fire, clearing the battlefield, regrouping, rearming.

Possibly overstates it, but there's more truth there than in your replies to me elsewhere on this post.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

I'm looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. (#127984)
by tomsyl

-

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

I suspect the tiring part (#127872)
by Spartacvs

would be in searching out those pushing such a meme in order to justify the comment. Far easier to make it up out of whole cloth.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Rose-colored glasses or a mule's blinders (#127931)
by tomsyl

are required to miss it. The best defense isn't always a good offense.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

Just Google Islamic Freedom Fighter (#127891)
by Carlos

not too tiring at all

Or google Juan Cole (#127932)
by tomsyl

for starts.

--

Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius

And that's the threat (#127907)
by Spartacvs

which has you whetting your pants?

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

An image of the commenter (#127964)
by Weyland

With whetstone, laboriouly sharpening the crease in those slacks . . .

But seriously, tone it down, plz.

--

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin

They were different, all right (#127553)
by stillnotking

They were a hell of a lot worse. To assert that the British all wore red uniforms, or that sabotage, terrorism and espionage were not pressing concerns in the War of Independence, or that America was in any way less vulnerable in 1776 than in 2008, is to display an understanding of history that is so far from reality as to preclude further meaningful discussion. Your Palin/Lincoln comparison was, if anything, more reasonable.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

JFTR (#127581)
by dionysus

Anytime I heard "Your Palin/Lincoln comparison was more reasonable" in reference to an argument I was making, I'm going to go curl into a ball and feel bad about myself for about 2 hours

At least one third of the Colonial Population (#127567)
by DNR-DC

was Tory, in full support of King and Country, often forming bands of "irregulars" [guerrillas or terrorists by modern standards] to harass Washington's army, esp. in New Jersey and the Carolinas. To suggest that our nascent country was less at risk during the Revolutionary War than in current times ignores history. Carlos, please read "Almost a Miracle" by John Ferling then get back to us on that point.

--

All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and I'm fine.

Will concede somewhat (#127823)
by Carlos

Colonial systems did have very serious bottlenecks, particularly at their ports and were easy prey at sea. But likewise, with 75% plus of the population working in agriculture, they always had a fall back position for survival and a domestic agricultural industry is difficult to sabotage, unlike modern networks.

America's job base today has an insignificant number of jobs in agricultural production and most of them are fragile in natural when you consider any increased risks related to repayment of debt (or ability to carry out a simple contract)...as we see today.

Thank you for the book recommendation.

Consumer led economic collapse? (#127550)
by Bill White

How much money have we spent on the Iraq war AND silly Homeland Security measures such as making kids take off their shoes at the airport?

I recall a stand up comic once pointing out that al Qaeda could drain a few billion dollars from our economy simply by having some teenagers in an Arab country engage in some internet chatter and thereby induce an elevated "threat level"

Lock down buildings all over America and productivity plummets.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Gitmo is worse than "wrong" it harms our long term interests (#127495)
by Bill White

Yes, I understand how fear and short-sightedness allowed Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and Bagram abuses to occur. There is some small measure of mitigation there.

However these abuses damaged our national interest immeasurably without ANY regard to liberal bleeding heart sensibilities.

For example, intelligence garnered by torture is NEVER credible or useful.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

They right themselves (#127466)
by stillnotking

by magic I suppose?

No, they right themselves because of the righteous indignation of people like me. The complacency displayed in your post is precisely the reason why I think it will not happen this time.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

It is not complacency (#127480)
by Carlos

It is simply a disagreement. I do not think that this military action has been particularly deadly, nor do I think it has required the sacrifice of too many basic rights...some yes, but not too many, for my tastes at least.

Democracy is not magic, nor is it pretty and efficient, but it usually does work to a nominal degree. And right itself it will, god willing.

It's a disagreement (#127481)
by stillnotking

about the definition of the word "complacency".

And right itself it will, god willing.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.