How Pelosi put Party before Country
As the Speaker of the House, Pelosi had a simple job get the bill passed. Instead she engaged in rhetoric to provide historical cover for Frank and Dodd.
Pelois provides a window of opportunity to review and discuss the following scenario,
in order to provide the American people some background on what actually transpired. Yes, Fannie and Freddie was a cash cow for the Democratic Party.
Congress needs to address the root cause. The repeal of the Community Reinvestment Act (as amended)would be a great start and should be incorporated into the next bill which comes before the House of Representatives.
A package of $100 to $200 billion in funding and $500 to $600 in bond insurance should be more than sufficient to address the issues at hand.
--
"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
--
"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
- Timmy the Wonder Dog's blog
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So much for the theory that Pelosi allegedly soured the Repubs on the bailout bill. Before the vote, the RNC prepared and distributed TV ads critical of the bailout to be run against Dems who voted for it. Republicans were for the bill before they were against it?
So, tell me again who puts Party before Country? IOKIYAR
Or can all of the bad behavior of Republicans be justified by "Pelosi made me do it"?
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)Just as I thought. The Nancy Hurt Our Feelings gambit sorta tanked.
44 percent blame the GOP.
21 blame the Dems.
25 think the mess is Bush's fault.
8 think the fault lies with Congress.
From an ABC/WaPo poll. You can find it over at The Note. They give no link with the numbers.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Today we see there is NO emergency. Congress won't be voting for a few days and Wall Street seems to lack any sense of panic, today.
Dumb luck? Maybe. But so what?
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)not until someone takes a stab at valuing all that paper currently gumming up the credit markets, because the stock market isn't a direct indicator of what's going on in the unregulated markets at the heart of problem. Until that happens Wall St. will carry on assuming some indeterminate value that keeps them on life support but not able to contribute by performing their role in the economy. Maybe they can remain in that condition without any catastrophic effect on the economy until we have a new administration capable of administering a solution, then again maybe not. Nobody really knows because we are in uncharted territory, heck of a job George.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Would you drop me an email?
c [dot] p [dot] mcinerney [at] gmail [dot] com
Thanks.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )...playing Britain, again?
Too funny.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )But, uh, draw your own conclusions.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Remind me, why is this bail-out so dang urgent anyway?
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)that's some pretty strong stuff there. Hank, Sparti - your thoughts? I already knew Maxine Waters doesn't have the mental capacity to hold national office, but that piece, and particularly Shays, makes things look pretty bad for the Dems saying now that Evil WepubWican deregulation was the cause of the problem.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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)Not a problem that traces back to anything coming out of Fannie or Freddie.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Shays, my rep btw, does a nice job. he describes to a tee how Freddie and Fannie tied up all the players with retainers.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )exposure to the subprime meltdown as Countrywide, Wamu, Wachovia, etc.
Deregulation gets most of the blame for the leveraging binge that got us where we are today. Impetus traces back to a few key players. My god I'm talking like Timmy.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )nt
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )don't get to ask them.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )direct result of buying a west coast savings & loan from two Soros toe sucking scum (Herbert and Marion Sandler, founders of Golden West Financial).
As for the balance, you are simply out of your league.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )have some numbers.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )or the general atmosphere that made it political suicide to introduce any potential regulation (as if the world never changes), well, let's face it things are a hash and should never have been allowed to get this far. The party always screaming not to interfere with the mythically perfect at-all-times-as-a-matter-of-faith market bears some responsibility. Sorry.
Don't you work in NY? How about the fact that market regulations introduced after the last screwup are the only reason Lower Manhattan hasn't been shuttered?
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| parent )and from you comment, the answer is none.
what you will find interesting is that on at least two occassions over the last 8 years the Republicans introduced legislation to regulate Freddie and Fannie.
if you care to hit the second link, you will get some of the flavor of the conversation.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )A) The comment you were responding to was discussing banks, not Fannie and Freddie
B) The number of actual mortgages in default is a staggeringly high 1% of all mortgages. That is a high number but it's not enough money to collapse the financial system like we're seeing, even if every one is defaulted on and then subsequently burned down with no insurance payment. The problem is that they're obfuscated in all these crazy credit default swaps and thus have "poisoned" a much larger sum of money. Don't you work in finance?
C) Said credit default swaps were deregulated under I believe that act that Gramm sponsored? I know there was significant loosening of their trades under some republican sponsored legislation.
D) Minority homeowners or even let's say all homeowners below certain thresholds who shouldn't have had their loans -- care to quantify that? Ballpark, $50B maybe? In total? Who cares, again the issue is obfuscation not bad bets. Your awesome market should've known better, anyways.
So there's your one case of deregulation under C). I know said piece of deregulation doesn't cover the whole picture, I blame the general atmosphere of "lets deregulate everything, let these guys operate in a black hole and them pump an f-ton of borrowed money into it through capital gains and top income bracket tax cuts". Sensible regulation not passed, tax cuts for the middle class not passed, healthcare not passed, green energy fought tooth and nail for 30 years.. those are much bigger than any individual piece of dereg.
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| parent )a. what do you think Fannie and Freddie are, if not banks?
b. it is a liquidity question with a valuation twist.
c. apparently you are puzzled and confused; that is, you don't know what you are talking about. exactly, what do you have in mind with this comment, "significant loosening of their trades".
d. ?
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )"it is a liquidity question with a valuation twist" says precisely nothing. What's the question? Is the question about what's wrong with the markets? Shouldn't liquidity be the answer? (It's not, not by itself anyways).
If the 20-30% valuations in these CDS contraptions and their subsequent write-downs are what's causing the liquidity crisis.. isn't it fundamentally a valuation problem with a liquidity twist?
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| parent )it simply reflects that the valuation is difficult (because of the multiple pathways) which has constrained liquidity; that is, it is difficult to price, if the cash flows are variable and the risk is up in the air.
with respect to Wall St. do you live in the class b or c retros or a glass house?
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )oh no it isnt....
Its worth the discounted probablistic cashflows that
pay out over the lifetime of the instrument if and
only if it is held to maturity...and the counterparty
remains good.
its worth whatever someone will pay if you want to sell
it before maturity - and that may well be zero.
liquidity arguements are red herrings here thats just
saying that the market is offering a low price compared
to excpected future returns or no price at all.
A standard risk in banking and business, if you need
to shed any kind of asset then the market price at the
time is what its worth not some thoretical value under
different conditions.
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| parent )that is to give the appearance of increased yield and reduced risk compared to the underlying mortgages. Apparently the geniuses who designed them never thought there would be foreclosures or a decline in the real estate market. Of course they long ago got their commissions for packaging and selling this garbage.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )William and Fulton. Nice neighborhood, quiet at night and central although there aren't as many good food places open past 8pm or so.
I still think fundamentally it's a valuation problem though.. if we could identify the bad loans, separate them from the good ones and just write down the bad ones, there wouldn't be a liquidity problem. The good loans would be valued at what they're worth and would pump in the monthly payments. The bad loans would be a bad year, really bad quarter but nothing like this. I guess that's a different way of saying the same thing as you but it seems like the liquidity problem is more of a symptom than a cause, the cause is the valuation changes erasing a whole bunch of digital money over night. Cause of fears of liquidity drying up, I guess. I'm going to bed, glad I don't work in this industry.
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| parent )You have to head over to DeNiroland, excuse me, Tribeca to get good eats at night.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )This is an area Timmy pretends to know something about. His grammar even improves.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )on c. he knows exactly what he's talking about. Phil Gramm slipped the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 into an appropriation bill. It also had the "Enron loophole", so he managed to get two financial crises out of one bill - impressive.
I believe all the puzzlement and confusion is in CT tonight.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )and leverage, both were fully described in Enron's balance sheet.
second and unrelated, credit, fx and interest derivatives have never been regulated as a product, they effectively trade on the intrabank mkt and not on any exchange. thus, the act you reference deregulated none of the aforementioned vehicles.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )Not working there or anything. But by Sarah Palin's standards, I'm an expert on this stuff.
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| parent )How much total money we talking that was lent out to bad lendees? 200 billion if you add up all the foreclosures for a few years in either direction? And assuming that the bank gets $0 re-selling the house?
That's not what's causing the chaos, the snafu is. That's where I blame the culture of deregulation and golden calf worship. Don't miss the forest for the trees, this is a problem that happens every time we go buck wild throwing borrowed gov't money into the investment markets via tax break and dereg rather than actually investing it in the country. 20's, 80's, now, all similar meltdowns, financial in nature, more similar to a bad, chaotic storm than the ship of industry slowing down for a correction. All preceded by massive tax breaks for the rich and a culture of deregulation and markets know best thinking. Everybody thought that if we just throw a ton of money at these really smart guys it'll magically create more money. It did for a while, on paper.
And trying to pin this on democrats because they allowed FM to lend a teensy rounding error in this mess to minorities who didn't pay it off? Like I said above, please fax to McCain campaign.
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| parent )the notion that dodgy mortgages given to a few minorities has led to the situation whereby the whole US financial system now teeters on the brink of complete collapse. I mean its gotta be a sure fire winner for McCain when this gets out hasn't it?
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Timmy's smart enough to realize his party just got screwed big time here. They're the obstructionists, McCain swooped in and the deal fell apart, while the democrats don't even get saddled with the guilt from the bailout. Every swing district dem got to vote against it.
Beautiful. Now we can give Paulson 100B next week with strings attached and tell him more is coming in January.
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| parent )Over and above the $700 billion?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )designed to make the current $700 billion slide into socialism unnecessary.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Have you watched the video TtWD posted on the 2004 hearing on financial/audit oversight on the Terrible Two? It sure looked like Shays was predicting September '08, and a broad Dem coalition (including the Frankster his own bad self) were not only plugging their ears and shouting "Not!", but were actually attacking the poor auditor. A damning video on this subject and who's responsible, but I acknowledge it's a pastiche. However, no one here has responded with anything credible.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )and the difference everyone quotes is that there was this implicit guarantee of govt support of FM/FM that we had to honor. Not that being in that situation in the first place makes a whole lot of sense to me
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| parent )Is that I don't think anyone takes Timmy's diaries seriously enough to go thru all the links. Heck. It's hard enough trying to figure out where all the verbs and nouns are supposed to go in his text.
But I watched it in your honor. And yes, I don't know why this Baker guy wasn't on McCain's short list for Veep. He's from the south, he seems smart -- did he lose in '06? How is Sarah Palin more qualified than he was? As for Maxine Waters, yes, I'm glad she's not on the ticket this year. Phew. That was a close call. And it's worth noting that thanks to selective editing, it's hard to know exactly what happened in that committee room that day. But that's not the point of the clip or of Timmy's posting it.
As for WepubWicans, careful with the Wicans. Sarah's preacher doesn't brook no witchcraft. And the larger de-reg problem has many fathers, and some of them no doubt Democrats. But, like it or not, the Phil Gramm/John McCain axis of economic evil will still take the bigger hit when it comes to de-reg. Tho' not to earmarks. I hear that John McCain is against them.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Not that I would know. Other than that, nothing further, except to note that I lived in LA long enough to learn a lot about Maxine Waters, more than I wish I knew. So I'm not basing my comments on her IQ (or her crooked past, for that matter) just on the video.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )from the Evil Mastermind himself.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)Mean, mean Nancy..it's all her fault.
But wait! I thought that it was the brave GOP minority that felt the bill was wrong and voted accordingly. A noble sentiment. But no? It was because Nancy said something? Man up, GOP. And they like to tell the country they are the strong ones? Heh...
Here's a blankie with that sippy cup.
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)Pelosi had one job and only one job get the bill through the House. she failed.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )I'm curious. To me it seems pretty shtoopid to crap on the same party whose members' votes you need, and to do it before you have those votes, but maybe you think otherwise.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )There was no conceivable good reason to make that speech, even if one had the moral standing to deliver it, which Pelosi assuredly does not.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )here. The idea that it was vicious enough and partisan enough to change votes is delusional.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Of course it's not a valid excuse. If Pelosi had gotten up there and called them all a bunch of posting rule violations, it still wouldn't be valid, because votes are about policy, not feelings.
But why give them any excuse at all? Are you following me here? Why would Pelosi give anything but an anodyne, extend-the-hand-of-bipartisanship speech when she's trying to pass a bipartisan bill?
Even partisan Democrats should be mad about that, because the Dems would be in a far stronger position if she had.
The fact that they're defending Pelosi on this one -- Nancy "impeachment is off the table" Pelosi -- tells me that the Congressional Democrats were more or less correct in their obvious assessment of their base as caring more about speeches than action. Congress has been shockingly complicit with the Bush Admin for the last eight years, but who cares as long as they're willing to yell at Bush. Repeatedly and pointlessly.
People get the government they deserve. Democrats have the Congress they deserve.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )...which derailed the bill. If Pelosi's weakness and/or incompetence got the job done, then I'm glad something good came out of it for once.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )and the more I read about the bailout, the more I realize the Paulson bill, even as (cosmetically) amended by Congress, was probably a disaster.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Who was her actual audience? I've never said it was worth changing votes over, just that it was dumb.
The second half of her speech included significant concerns with the bailout bill itself, which seem to have been ignored by those here who are tripping over their own feet trying to blame Republicans for today's market nosedive.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I'm the one who's supposed to be stating that Republicans are so disinterested in the good of the nation that being called a nasty name or two can cause them to throw the idea over.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Blind partisanship apparently being something you feel expertise on. %^>
Seriously, though, we both agree that Bush's/Paulson's bill was fatally flawed, but how about putting some economist's meat on those bones? And do you trust Bernanke? I'm betting not. The Fed in general to do what's good for the economy versus what might be deemed good for the Federal Reserve? Do you agree with my belief that the two aren't necessarily the same? What do you think of the enormous expansion of the power of the Treasury Dept. under the EESA? (Assume a Republican executive in '09-'12 to highlight the risks as you see them.)
And tell us what you see as the fatal flaws in the EESA so we can see if they're fixed today. I've already sounded off on the subject, with no response from the multitude here.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )when he said that the bill would make a recession "less likely."
We're going to have a recession. The bill was irrelevant to that. If you can't tell the truth when you're talking about $700 billion, you can't tell the truth.
As for the rest, I haven't fully formed opinions yet. I don't have a lot of trustworthy sources, so it's taking time to sift wheat from chaff.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I wish Max Sawicky was still pontificating.
He'd know what to do.
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| parent )This?
The GOP bolted because the Admin they have been frantically trying to distance themselves from anyway was called on the carpet?
I was rereading the text looking for "The House GOP sucks big donkey d**k" or something that would have been nasty. Not the above. Seriously, they should be embarrassed. Voting against the bill because they thought it was a bad idea is valid, if misguided (I really am not sure), but whining about the above. As the kids say, EPIC FAIL.
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| parent )till you get to the part where she realizes where she is, looks around the room and says "well, *some* Republicans . ." ." Sort of an oops moment for Nan.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )so?
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )I can say stuff is dumb if I want to. that's what this site is for. There doesn't have to be a "so" somewhere, either; that's right in the posting rules. Or will be shortly. (No, I am not calling you short; that was a figure of speech.)
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Jeeze, tender-ears. That would make Sarah Palin's convention speech something only a Godwin violation could adequately describe. Nancy is so mean. It was worth 1.2 trillion bucks to put her in her place.
Well done, GOP!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )and the concerns raised there? You did read that far, didn't you?
Are you going with the concept that it was smart for Pelosi to drop a load on the people whose votes she needed before she had them clutched in her grimy little hands?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )But the worst move of the day was trying to blame the vote-bleeding on her speech. Unfortunately for the GOP, that's likely to stick, and stick longer than any complaints about her super-mean rhetoric.
Actually, the worst move of the day may have been McCain taking credit for the bill just before it failed. But he's spiraling to such an extent that maybe folks won't notice.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I'm not blaming the vote-bleeding on her speech, I think vote-changers are idiots if that was really their reason (never being one to underestimate the duplicity quotient of all pols at the national level), and I don't give a flying fong about the effect of this on the angular velocity of the candidates' spin cycles. I've said all of that already, thrice.
I want to know whether you agree with Pelosi's reasonably capsulized, if incomplete summary of what this bill would actually do to separation of powers.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )and click
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )if you can't control yourself in the face of a boring Pelosi speech, you're not qualified to be in Congress.
But I forgot, that doesn't apply to Republicans
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )--
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )hence the second link
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )Here's something fun but omening. This diary seems like the perfect place for it:
The Dow fell 777 points. Actually 777.68, which is 777.7 if you round up. That's a lot of 7's. Four, in fact, which is, as chance may have it, an unlucky number in China.
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)The S&P 500 bottomed in 2002 at 776.76, which rounds to 777. This is art, not science, but people who like this sort of thing will find it the sort of thing they like.
--They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864
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| parent )now contributing to security de-leveraging. Also please explain the 31 year lag between passage of the bill and fallout in the credit markets. Thanks.
As for Pelosi, somehow I expected GOP representatives to have thicker skin.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)this post from your previous diary that shows you to be 100% incorrect on the CRA. But keep blaming the minorities, I'm sure that's a winning strategy.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)is that when you change credit standards, that change is ubiquitous.
second and related, as I have clearly pointed out, when the GOP pursued regulation of Freddie and Fannie, the Dems opposed it.
something about buckets of cash in the pockets of Democrats.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )look at all the foreclosure maps on the internet. They're not concentrated in CRA areas. And Fannie and Freddie, for all their problems, had a far lower foreclosure rate than the rest of the industry. So 0 for 2 again.
But keep going with the "it's all the minorities fault!" approach. I'm sure it will pay dividends in November. Or maybe not.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )and make sure you cover all of the mortgages insured by Fannie and Freddie.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )in your last mendacious diary. Try to keep up.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )dealt with comments made by Obama on national defense.
btw, you still have not address the Dem's efforts in stopping the regualtion of Fannie and Freddie.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )Minorities don't vote Republican in any significant number, so no loss there. While blaming minorities in some way for the financial crisis gives cover to those who might normally vote Democrat and don't consider themselves racist but nonetheless feel uncomfortable with the prospect of a black President, to feel more comfortable with a vote for McCain.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )who both happen to be white.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )What, you got a problem with minority minorities? :D
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| parent )I can always depend on Timmy to deliver the mindless spin without me having to actually go to the swamps to read it.
Now, nobody really knows what happened with the vote but the idea that Republicans had a sudden change of heart because Pelosi gave a mean speech is stupid. Come on, get a better meme because nobody is going to buy this load.
Blame can be spread around but the story as it stands is the bill was to be bipartisan for *gasp* political cover but when it came down to the vote, some Republicans flipped. Why? Who knows. What I do know is you can't fully blame the Dems with this story line. There was a deal on the table, designed to please enough people on both sides of the isle. It may come out that this was not what happened but until then, Timmy's spin is ludicrous.
For tomsyl - What would you be saying now if the deal had given up nothing to the GOP and was passed without their help? Would you be applauding their steely eyed leadership?
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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)and given her responsibilities as the Speaker of the House, she was stupid.
hey, the whisper going around D.C. is that the Dems are going to refloat a bill where the likes of ACORN get billions.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )I am not "applauding the GOP's steely-eyed leadership" and I don't know what I said that even suggests that. To the contrary, I don't particularly want to know what the Republicans who opposed the bailout bill have to say for themselves; I am much more interested in hearing from 95 Democrats that opposed it. Because their opposition is far less likely to have been for partisan reasons. meaning there may be real substance there. And maybe it's the election silly season, but the two sides seem so far apart that I can't imagine a liberal agreeing with me on the problems I see in the draft EESA, but it's at least possible that that some of the Dem dissenters see some of the same problems.do.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )you wouldn't be happy if the Ds had locked out the Rs. The predicament we are in is due in large part to the Rs who did not vote as they said they would.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )so I don't care who opposed it so long as it didn't pass in its present form. I don't believe in a bill just because the Republicans are pushing it, any more than I believe a bill automatically is bad because it comes from the Dems. Even if this had been a Republican initiative, I will would have read the bill, and I'd have the same doubts I expressed below about the bill. So your suggestion is easy to refute, for me anyway.
Slight correction: I am not sure it was "Rs who did not vote as they said they would"; more like Rs who did not vote the way their nominal leaders said they would; i.e. failure by that leadership to deliver the vote. How significant that is depends on the cdircumstances.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Nice of you to concede it finally. Now hop back over to the other thread and admit the same.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Not. (sorry catchy.) I'll consider kowtowing to you after you explain those 95 votes you continue to ignore.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Via McClatchy
In a nutshell: democracy in action.
The lede is the nut here:
"100-1" (or "100-0") against has been the usual ratio of said calls: put very simply, a lot of citizens didn't want Congress to pass this bailout as is: and made their displeasure known. Result: no bill. The opposition seems to have crossed party and ideological lines: there was a lot to object to for almost everyone: liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans. And the Administration's panicky calls for immediate action didn't help, either.
Speaker Pelosi and Rep. Boehner aren't completely at fault here (nor blameless, either!). Neither had a good hand to play, unfortunately, the immediate descent into partisan backbiting isn't helping things much.
Personally, I blame Bush.
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| parent )I don't know why or for what; it just seemed a good place to start. Thanks for the info; unfortunately it sounds like the revolt against both parties' leadership was based more on constituent calls (wonder if it was the same guy calling on speed dial) and less on any sort of analysis of the actual contents of the actual legislation they were being asked to pass. What do you think the pros and cons of the bill are?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )they just aren't relevant in the context of 141 Dem votes in favor of the bipartisan bill.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )I don't fully understand the mechanics of the bill and even the problems it is supposed to fix so I have to defer to you on those issues. I do understand that something jacked up happened in DC today. My original point was that the story as it stands doesn't look good for Rs and your argument about "doing the math" is silly when one side undershot their vote tally. Whether the bill was good or bad, they (R leadership, whip, etc...) have a larger share of the blame.
edit : not that there isn't enough blame to go around. I'd LOVE to know what happened today. Did individuals change their vote for reelection reasons? Was it some concerted effort to torpedo the bill?
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )I only jumped into this discussion after I saw some of the usual suspects trying as usual to pin the Republicans with complete responsibility for the EESA's failure. I am much more interested in the what and the why of that failure; sounds like you are, too.
No need to defer to me on anything; I'm just reading the thing and trying to decode the alphabet soup of agencies it would set up if passed. I'm still waiting for the Bailout 101 lecture where we get told how this happened, how the bill will fix it, and how the guilty will be rounded up and given a good tasing.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Come on, Timmy, the minority party was heading for the exits before Pelosi even spoke. The Republicans have no leadership at any level, not lame dcuk W (perhaps the lamest of the lame), not break big wind but say nothing in the Roosevelt Room McCain (perhaps b/c he actually has nothing to say that makes sense about the economyand the current credit crisis), not minority leader Boehner who never had the troops in line here. Note that 30 out of 38 Rep. MOCs in "toss up" elections voted no. Tell me with a straight face that if Pelosi was all sweetness and light that any of these folks would have voted yes on the bailout.
--All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz and I'm fine.
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)and she failed to control those with leadership positions and her home state Democrats.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )While actively engaged in doing (more or less) exactly what the Bush Administration was demanding they do, they've managed to let the Republicans off the hook for queering the deal because Nancy Pelosi was so gosh darn mean to Bush on the House floor.
What a party. The Republicans may be scumbags too, but at least they're politically competent scumbags.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)Look at this like you don't like either side. Boehner just blamed the defeat on the fact that Nancy Pelosi was mean to them. Barney Frank suggested their hurt feelings probably should not come before the economic health of the country.
Now which side looks more 'competent' in this exchange?
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I don't think either one of them looks particularly competent. However, I think that if the Democrats were serious about passing this highly dubious bill, it was exceptionally stupid of them (specifically Pelosi) to give the Republicans a ready-made excuse for "nay" votes, in the form of a highly partisan floor speech that basically scolded them for creating the whole mess.
I mean, why do that? It's just plain dumb. Present the bill as an unpleasant but necessary compromise, then if the GOP torpedoes it you can claim they acted out of partisanship.
This doesn't even touch on the absurdity inherent in the fact that Democrats were trying to ram a bill created and sponsored by the Bush Administration down the unwilling throats of Republicans. That part bears some thinking about, doesn't it? Perhaps casts certain historical events in a somewhat different light, shall we say?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )141 Democrats voted yes.
133 Republicans voted no.
Deal with it.
--Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
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)95 Dems voted against the bill. Explain what their problems were with it, and how the bill would have passed if they didn't oppose it. Show your work.
Are you at all curious about why those Dems voted against something their own leadership was pushing hard? Too big, or not enough to help? Too much pork, or too little? States' rights issues? Too many new alphabet agencies under the Treasury Sec'ty's control? Even more power ceded to the Fed? Or maybe none of the above?
I am more interested in what those Dems have to say than in the Republican dissenters' opinions.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )when you have a compromise bill, you lose people at the margins in order to get a majority from the center. What Blount's statements indicate is that the Rs thought they had the votes but didn't.
And for the math impaired - a majority of Dems voted yes, a majority of GOP voted no. How that makes it the Dem's fault is beyond math and apparently simple logic.
You keep harping on the minor fact that the Dems had a small majority while completely missing the fact that the GOP had a larger majority of their members voting it down. But it's all the Dem's fault - keep saying that as it will be of some comfort in November.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )This is the 'read comments before replying" study hall. Nowhere have I said "this is all the Dems' fault" or words to that effect. What I have been saying is that those who are claiming it is the Republicans' fault (you among them, IIRC) are full of hot soup. It was a bipartisan bill that went down to bipartisan opposition; anyone who says otherwise has to wish away the actual vote tally. I.e., the math-impaired people referenced in your comment.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )you're being impenetrable on purpose. It didn't go down to bipartisan defeat, a MAJORITY of Ds voted for it and a MAJORITY of Rs voted against it. Spin it any way you want, but harping on why it got less than 100% of the Dem vote isn't getting you anywhere.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )for it to pass? I thought that was the number of Republicans who supposedly changed their votes after the Pelosi speech (assuming that is true).
The numbers just keep smacking you in the chin, but math is pretty unforgiving. And once you take political duck and cover out of the equation, nothing the Dems say makes any sense. Guess nobody thought that being the majority could have it's down side, eh?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )it's impossible to explain something to someone who is dedicated to not understanding it. Pelosi delivered a majority of her party, Bush, McCain and Boehner didn't. Spin it however you want, no one here is buying it and the public isn't either.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )It is very hard to spin numbers, though. Don't feel insulted if I suggest you lack the talent.
I understand your argument perfectly; I just don't buy it. Here's why: The bailout bill failed because it did not get the votes of a majority in Congress. With me so far? Good. The Congresspeople who didn't vote for the bill collectively defeated it. Agreed? Right. That is all.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )