Advantages/Graces of Understanding you do not have free will and some humor on the subject
Romans 8:38,39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Some repetition of past observations with additions based on the former observations.
As being sent to them who see themselves not as a brotherhood but as a loose collective of "personal sovereignties", but yet who in Jesus Christ are in every way a true brotherhood ( for who else can hear? If others hear it seems foolishness to them..) :
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought. But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew, (for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;) but according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God. But *we* have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means . But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned; but the spiritual discerns all things, and *he* is discerned of no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct him? But *we* have the mind of Christ.
You cannot understand you have no free will unless you have been born again in Jesus Christ. The best you can hope for minus that actual and non-metaphorical new birth in Him is a cycle of hopelessness based on your belief that you have free will --and so does everyone else and thus you are not powerful in comparison to their collective of free will.
You are not a robot. No one ever said you were.The false accusation that God "implied" you were a robot is just that ..a false accusation. You know you are not a robot. Everyone perfectly understands they are not robots.
The disadvantage of understanding you have no free will is simply that a lot of people are deceived they do and so "you do too" and in your understanding you are literally set apart from them in a permanent way minus their new birth in Jesus Christ; that setting apart brings from the spirit in them, who is anti-Christ, derision and mockery against you that cannot stop. ( that is, it has no free will and cannot be "bought off" by any means --it CAN'T stop ..not "it WON'T stop" ).
So, the Advantages ( Graces ) :
- You are delivered from a cycle of vain-to-be-hopeless that goes: 1. "I have free will and therefore am personally strong and powerful." 2. "Everyone else has free will "too"" 3. "Because I can't control other people's free will and they are so many and I am only one, I actually have no personal power at all because I must live around them."
- You are delivered from self-imposed tyranny that goes 1. I have free will and am therefore personally strong and powerful. 2. But other people have free will too. 3. Because I am only one and they are many, yet we have "pooled our personal sovereignties into one big powerful bloc" we can elect over us those who will most reflect our desires. But since we have to contend with other blocs of pooled sovereignties, we must give up some of our personal sovereignty in order to live in safety in the world. The more dangerous we even mis-perceive they are, the more personal sovereignty we have to give up to safeguard the part of our personal sovereignty that is left. We have to give up more and more as time goes by because those other blocs are reacting off of us to do the same, and as a collective we are all free willers contending over who's free will will remain free-est. We can't get out of having free will ( God gave it/forced it on us per our religious portion of the doctrine of free will.. ) and thus a drift into tyranny and dictatorship to safeguard tiny bits of free will/personal-sovereignty is the inevitable human condition."
Because you don't have free will, there is nothing to be protected in that manner. No one can steal it from you. You can't steal it from anyone else. I.E. In a permanent way we have freedom FROM each other because we do not have the freedom to overthrow each other. Thus we are a brotherhood, each of whom is equivalently powerLESS against each other.
- Personal identity is secured forever. You know that you have no need of distinguishing yourself because you have no ability to manufacture an identity "from the available ideas or ideology" "in the age in which you walked on the earth" ..or at all. You know that God has created you and maintained you in a personal uniqueness beyond anything you or any other creature understands as knowledge concerning total reality. You cannot abrogate or grow your own fundamental identity. You CAN'T get rid of it. No one can take it from you as it is maintained by God and not you or anyone else. ( that would be the "certain inalienable rights" portion of the Declaration of Independence. ) It isn't simply that other people can't "mess with your worth or identity". You can't get out of your worth or identity or fundamental value before God either.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315
Note the above has no implication of the commonly applied term of free willers to it of "civil rights". "Civil rights" are supposed rights/figments-of-imagination completely "independent from God" granted by a 'government' ( as a supposed and falsely idealized collective of free willers giving portions of their "personal sovereignty" away to form a monolithic and living "x" that is falsely idealized to have free will and "personal sovereignty" of its own as if it were alive and the equivalent of a supra-human being.. ( that in ages past was called the "(insert-idealized-power)" that fell from heaven"..) ) that then disperses some of "its" own "sovereignty" back to certain sets of citizens in such a manner as to make it seem they are all "equal" by whatever definition of "equal" "it" sets up given the available ideology of that day or era and is also falsely idealized to be able to "enforce" those rights on certain citizens and against others.
Such a false idealization of Just government as the dispenser of identity and thus accompanying "rights" that would be necessary to maintain that identity can only begin and end in tyranny in that the whole is simply a compounding of lies that defines itself as the truth no matter what it does ..for its own sake. While the people may be somewhat "religious" and say "God gave them the government" they intend in every way a non-creating God ( i.e. no "Creator" but only a "Dispenser of what already exists" ) supposedly gave THEM powers of creation such that they have a 'responsibility" to manufacture a "perfect" government for themselves --and like creatures. The citizens involved in having made that "government" cannot dissent as to do so invalidates their lens on reality, their emotional response set and their religion. Not only so, but that false idealization of "government-has-free will- "too""must necessarily rely on the the false perception of scarcity among its populace as the direct means of seeming to manufacture and hand out individuality: each uniqueness/individuality can only be seen as scarce and a thus functional kind of money. Thus the very definition of individuality by that "government" and off of which it operates as fuel is based on the very thing that IS the tyranny: limitation as scarcity that in reality does not exist but in which all of life is forced to "include" as if it does. Such a people fallen in that government-defines-"civil rights" will be wise and vain in their own eyes to destroy themselves and everyone around them.
Such had been the case prior to the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence. Only in the past one hundred and fifty years in the United States has the old tyranny ( of that falsely idealized "government as supra-human with "free will"" from which the fathers escaped taken hold once more with the very same results it always has: a people vain to be hopeless and who help out the tyranny that binds them.
..end sidebar. Continuing with "Advantages/Graces of understanding you have no free will":
- You are delivered from ALL lies and deception in total reality as to your fundamental identity and being, not simply the lies you have come to understand are lies. I.E. You cannot be "taken apart"/disassembled and rearranged ideologically by anything past, present or future, to include government. You can't "become ascended" --or miss out on "ascending". You can't mess up/"break" falsely idealized "civil rights" for yourself or anyone else. You can't be a tyranny on anyone else and no one can be a tyranny on you.
- You are not subject to the lies that operate as the common sense of the world and those fallen in it. For instance:
- their notion of money as something that must serve in some way free will in general else it is useless yet which always ends in human souls subject to money as if "man was made for Money"
- their notion of what reality is and can be in order to keep intact a lie of free will: you are not blinded by their 'science' or the limitations/conclusions of it and can see what God shows you. They will never find, in all their searching anything that includes something that proves their will is not free. All physical reality must be defined by them to be that perfect environment in which free will "can" and thus "does" exist. They cannot see anything in reality to be any other way. All they do is "scientifically prove" to themselves that ..they have "free will".. over and over. Once in that trap, they cannot escape, no matter how it may seem they arrive at some new "proof" that is supposedly independent as a "new" area that might offer hope to relieve the effects of their illusions. You are delivered from ALL their delusions.
- You can't falsely idealize "nature" so as to destroy your own agriculture and food supply in an attempt to make it better
- You can't kill other people or yourself on the supposed basis of scarcity ( as if there were always "too many people chasing too few resources" ( as in Never Enough! ..emotion, time, food, clothing, shelter, land, children, religion, oil/energy, "free will", etc.. )
- You can live a life devoid of a multitude of laws and limitations that exist expressly to supposedly keep one free willer off another. You can have a tiny, yet robust government while they must have a huge, ineffective government whose only real power and efficacy is to tyrannize the citizens. As well, you can be a deliverer from God to them to set them free from exactly the very government they were deceived into manufacturing over themselves and do so without ever trampling on them or being unjust yourself.
- Your military will not be a group of people waiting on orders from somewhere else to act for the defense of the people. As a brotherhood-in-the-field, each one is his own unique contribution as God acts through us in whatever ways He will do so and minus our own limitations. The enemy will not be able to plan out how to fight you given that you will not even know what God is going to do next through you. ( you won't have a "doctrine" you always follow and so can be defeated by the enemy merely reading your doctrinal manuals. )
- You cannot be deceived you are jut one big heart and flesh that needs only food and emotion to survive. You cannot be deceived you are anything less than a spirit, with an immortal soul, with a heart and mind that is not its flesh but lives in ( at present) corrupt flesh as a total human being. As a new creature in Jesus Christ you understand you are not trying, because you have no ability to "be better" than yourself or anyone else. As such you cannot fall for the lie that someone else has "ascended" and you can follow them IF, with "your free will" or with "part of their free will given to you", you do as they say.
- You cannot be deceived that only non-creating speech exists in total reality and that speech can never be anything more than a tool of the free will as part of that ideal environment which must exist in order for free will to exist. You understand the distinction between the Word of God/Logos/Jesus Christ/Creating Speech and anti-Christ/non-creating speech.
- You are given genuine compassion on those deceived they have free will and understand they not only cannot know what true compassion is so long as they stay in that lie of free will, but cannot have it toward any no matter the amount of churchianity they perform toward others day and night.
- You cannot speak endlessly and never arrive at the truth that stops speech. God as your speech creates as He wills. You cannot have a love of mere discourse as if everyone were equivalently "using" a widget of "free will" as language simply to demonstrate their personal power because of the effects of a common deception of "personal free will equals powerlessness among a population of free willed beings" and speech is the only supposed exception to that rule but only in the instant it is "used".
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Some free willer humor as an aside:
You might be a free willer if:
- Your favorite part of the movie, after all the "decisions" have been made at all the "critical intersections of events" is when someone says "We got no choice!". You wonder why they were miraculously saved in the end anyway and yet say "that ending could not have happened in real life."
- Your favorite part of the political process is when all the "choices" are over; that there is a conclusion to a process for its own sake so that you can start another process of "choice to no-choice/selection". You want no term limits so that you don't have to go through that political junk over and over.
- You are walking toward the voting booth thinking you would vote for who you really know is the right candidate, but all the other free willers would laugh at you if they found out --so you "can't".
- You think "rights" are a limited thing someone else must list for you and are time sensitive: after they have "somehow" been "used up", "given away" and/or "stolen" can't ever come again given the mortality of your flesh and some mysterious particulars about rights themselves. After all, even if they do come again or you "recognize them" for the first time after you have departed the flesh, what good are they to you?
- As you stare at dozens of brands of ..bottled water for instance, you don't consider competition keeps prices down but only that is a great thing you as a consumer have "choice" for its own sake
- You want lots of money and cheap goods, no matter other costs to you and others merely to keep up the process of choosing on-going at all times and as proof of personal sovereignty. Lacking that money and cheap goods you equate to actual poverty no matter the plenty you have.
- The steps through you to do away with "poverty" idealized to be a lack of lots of money and cheap goods only does away with the "freedom" you thought you were saving and the actual plenty in which you were living.
- You look yourself in the mirror and say "D--n. I'm a genius." and think of yourself as qualified to give out awards for the genius and bravery of to others like yourself.
- You "recognize" prison the instant you "get there". It's just like they described; constraint/lack of everything in the midst of plenty that other people can get and enjoy in front of you.
- As your land and family is invaded and your people killed, your leaders are traitors and ringleaders of foreign peoples in sedition against you, you say "I have free will and therefore can do nothing but idealize what I or others might do if only I or they could do something."
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Colossians 3:1-4 If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God: have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God. When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall *ye* also be manifested with him in glory.
1John 4:14-21 And *we* have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And *we* have known and have believed the love which God has to us. God is love, and he that abides in love abides in God, and God in him. Herein has love been perfected with us that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that even as *he* is, *we* also are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has torment, and he that fears has not been made perfect in love. *We* love because *he* has first loved us. If any one say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he that loves God love also his brother.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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Mind Control in the lie of free will is outside "things" controlling the mind and emotions of a supposed independent free willed being who has a mind and heart of its own unique to all else yet is supposedly defined as a total being by its history and actions ( whether idealized falsely to spread across the lie of "many lifetimes" or idealized to be of only one lifetime) in denial of its soul. Having a mind not-God and staying away from God as God actually is as a mind, spirit and heart is central to free will theology, even as free will theology is an essentially the claim to make Man god.
That is distinguished in every way from being a new creature in Jesus Christ with God being our mind and granting us a heart as His Own. I.E. God is not controlling "our" mind, He IS our mind as Word and Spirit in that we are one with Him.
1Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct him? But *we* have the mind of Christ.
1John 4:17 Herein has love been perfected with us that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that even as *he* is, *we* also are in this world.
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Mind control as the lie of free will is an attempt to limit the actions of another or oneself in such a way as to achieve a goal by having the goal the only desire and / or image of "choice". In effect, it is a compounding of Can't in the mind of the individual excepting on thing: the goal.
I.E. It is saying in effect that there is no free will --except for the one or two things ( "obedient" act and next behavior as "reward" ) . That one thing is then made out to be both an emotional and "logical" imperative, even if it is used as the carrot or stick that the victim must supposedly go through to get to the reward of relief from emotional pain and "logical" inconsistency of incompletion.
It is important to note is that mind control itself is making of the victim a robot ( the exact but false accusation against Calvinism and Calvinistic/Creating Determinism ) that is simply turned on and off by the controller. That can only happen within the lie of free will. The lie must first be instilled as at least a false front of total freedom and then narrowed to produce the desired effect in the victim by the lie of "more personal power" ( "free will" followed by "gift" to empower that free will ) gained by "focusing" on some isolated 'x' as compared to the supposed plethora of "other possibles". ( ritualistic "meditation", aka "reducing the choices")
The question then is this: what IS that instillment? What IS the lie? What is effecting the persons flesh to be the thoughts and control the actions ?
It is non-creating speech itself.
Note that in understanding total lack of free will, no such mind control is possible because the only way to understand total lack of free will is via the Word of God within, a distinct Speech from non-creating speech.
Total lack of free will is total freedom from mind control in that the thoughts and actions are a coordination between God and child/new creature in Jesus Christ as a teaching that evidences unique act after unique act that is not simply some repetitive act for the reward of doing yet another repetitive act.
If, as the speech of free willers implies, freedom is evidenced in abundance of unique actions and a mere lack of repetitiveness, total lack of free will in Jesus Christ plainly creates new actions as He IS Creating Speech as our mind. Yet non-creating speech seeks repetition as comfort: not unique after unique after unique, and falsely idealizes the world in such a way as to seem to have achieved that very repetition as a supposed triumph of the will that may sometimes go "my education paved the way for my vocation."
Those who live such a private inner life will in the end, despite their lies that they can do "anything", seek a rigorously repetitive life with few, if any unique events if they could control it ..and seek to instill that same life on others in their best honesty on their most benevolent day as supposedly doing others a favor. They will seek a comfort zone of rote repetition, be angry when disturbed, and yet claim total freedom of will. They will go from painting their cars multicolored drug induced nonsense, to one color to reflect a monochrome outlook they always had after they had been trained they had "free will" and the color scheme reflected their inner "creativity". They will understand and even state people are more than they can articulate, yet hold rigorously to the articulation of "free will" theology, whether it be atheistic or theistic as that speech of free will ( non-creating speech ) will cause them to articulate laws and act out law enforcement on the basis of their own articulations.
The only true freedom is new birth in Jesus Christ, which as a by-product of being born again, makes those who are new creatures perfectly understand that Creating Speech/Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit and Father as Total Trinity acts through them, they lack independence from God in every way ( and thank God for that lack of independence ) and never had free will nor ever will in the way non-creating speech understands "free will".
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man deviseth his way, but Jehovah directeth his steps.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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)Not to spring yet another comparative religion reference on you, but your thoughts on Mind and Will remind me a great deal of certain doctrines of Zen Buddhism, which is, at the end of the day, a religious practice devoted to experiencing the truth that what we think of as our mind doesn't actually exist as such. That is, reverse engineering ourselves as thinking beings in order to experience what we actually are as beings. D.T. Suzuki's book The Doctrine of No Mind lays this out very well.
Of course I realize as a devout follower of Christ you resist other types of religious practice, even those based on deeply similar experiences. Me I prefer the antinomian streak in Zen (and some types of Christianity) where the emphasis is on practice and learning, rather than devotion to particular metaphysical figures. I'm resistant, like many western secular types, to "worship" and prefer things like wisdom, grace, understanding. On the one hand, a personal deity who replaces or amplifies kinship bonds (Father, Son, Brother) can be immensely comforting. On the other, devotion to a particular name, book, figure, litany, practice, or humanly invented symbolic construct of the divine seems archaic & fraught with the dangers of idolatry. What's in a Name, in other words.
That's my American antinomianism talking, but I think it accounts for a lot of the resistance to (and outright inability to hear) what you're trying to say here.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )it isn't that the similarities detract from the Word of God, but in truth prove what He is Saying: they are mimics and incapable of unique systems themselves.
God has placed them to confound those who rely on themselves.
2Thess 2:11,12 And for this reason God sends to them a working of error, that they should believe what is false, that all might be judged who have not believed the truth, but have found pleasure in unrighteousness.
"What's in a name" is a plain statement that says "They are almost saying the exact same thing."
It is the difference in power of Word that makes the difference.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
We have then, been lead to all the fathers. We are seeing now their arguments and God's replies.
You can go from one to another system the fathers were used to construct, supposedly taking advantage of what each offers to help you attain to an ideal yet common emotional response set within them and thinking that the "freedom" to come and go from each proves your identity and independence from them all, yet you are still a slave to the emotional response set common among the pretenders.
Beware that the "deconstruction" of your mind is not simply mind control in the pretense of free will. To control you via a front of inner change disguised as free will growth and make you think it was "your" idea.
Man is the center of a war based on the truth that God appointed Man over His works and has never revoked that mandate. Look and see in the Bible:
God honors His Word to all at all times even though He can create new things ( if He wanted, He could merely create His way out of promises and still fulfill/keep them because He IS Creating Speech..) :
God doesn't Speak directly to those spirits He casts out or casts down as those who have taken over entire nations and that are not man: He speaks through those in flesh who are in His image to those spirits and to those men who have been thrown down by those spirits. God throws down entire dynasties He had formerly set up --through His Word through the prophets. Christ Jesus / Word of God partook of flesh to cast down the works of the Devil.
1John 3:8 He that practises sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil.
God didn't just simply do it from heaven even though He could. He did it through Man ( yet not as fallen man --not through what man had become..) The prophets were new creatures in Jesus Christ by virtue of having heard the Word.
Understanding the importance of Man, not Man reduced to servitude of the very spirits over which man was appointed, but the Man of the new world to come and even now:
Hebrews 2:5-11 For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak; but one has testified somewhere, saying, What is man, that thou rememberest him, or son of man that thou visitest him? Thou hast made him some little inferior to the angels; thou hast crowned him with glory and honour, and hast set him over the works of thy hands; thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, he has left nothing unsubject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to *him*, but we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; so that by the grace of God he should taste death for every thing. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings. For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
So you have God partaking of flesh to save Man whom God had already appointed ruler over God's works ..to restore Man to that rulership in Christ ..yet as being legitimately subject to God. ..In true Christianity.
In all false religion, all you have that Man can even be given by their "grace" is a search method and supposed finding of emotional rest by whatever means necessary ( deconstruction included ) as simple rest from attack of the very spirits not-Man and not-God that attacked us in the Garden of Eden. The very supposed 'change" into a "higher being" of the various false religions that even have that as part of their doctrine, is for no other purpose than emotional rest in an instilled emotional response set that is of the fallen heart --for the simple benefit of a Man-under-attack. There is no ruling over the works of God --no supposed subjection to God at all but a supposed rest VIA independence from God --the very thing those spirits wanted and why they hated Man to begin with.
Understand those lying spirits are immortal, and you've got a intelligent growing, reacting "mind" that is forced to react to God's Word in the world to keep up a dance that says "you have free will!" just to keep you down and under their control. --both the "good cop" side and the "bad cop" side, the positive and the negative reinforcement.
Yes, they can all "look alike". But they have never been the same. Nor have their goals and accomplishments been the same.
Hebrews 2:10-15 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings. For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises. And again, I will trust in him. And again, Behold, I and the children which God has given me. Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )and also to Hinduism. As you point out, he doesn't agree with that.
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| parent )I've read almost all the responses to timothy's last several diaries, and keeping it all straight is a chore in itself.
In any case, I think he stopped replying to my posts after I told him I thought predestination was a "cosmic horror", with its image of creation as a schizophrenic puppetshow. Doesn't mean it couldn't be true....
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )is perhaps the power of "I missed that." That kind of response is the same spirit through the many, so I don't see why you would have been picked out to ignore.
Another case of single lying spirit in the mouth of multiple persons posing as truth tellers:
1Kings 22:19-25 And he said, Hear therefore the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him, on his right hand and on his left; and Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead? And one said after this manner, and another said after that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him , and also succeed: go forth, and do so. And now, behold, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning thee. Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micah upon the cheek, and said, Where now went the Spirit of Jehovah from me to speak to thee? And Micah said, Behold, thou shalt see on that day when thou shalt go from chamber to chamber to hide thyself.
Either way, we don't have free will. So all the emotionals are just window dressing. Trying see the window dressing as the dictator of what is true would lead to the sentence: "I told him I thought predestination was a "cosmic horror", with its image of creation as a schizophrenic puppetshow."
Proverbs 28:26 He that confideth in his own heart is a fool; but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )Valid in principle, conceivably true, emotionally horrifying. To me. Again, Christianity is neither the first nor the last to imagine a cosmology that subsumes all of creation within the mind of a single Creator.
If I were *shopping* for a cosmology, I'd prefer to think the universe contains at least the possibility for Other(s) - but as you point out, my preferences count for very little. The world aint' a Wal Mart.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Jordan! My thinking exactly. Though I'll admit that I was compelled to play "bad cop" just so I knew where he stood. :)
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent ).. heard an NPR broadcast today that involved that subject. Not bad minus the seduction to hate Jesus Christ. Beyond that interview; Those deceived they have free will seem to think they have explained all of life and thus when faced with the truth that they do not have free will, suddenly want answers to questions that "Lack of free will" supposedly has to explain yet which arose specifically out of a DECEPTION that free will exists answered as if the deception wasn't a deception everywhere all the time, but was simply a shadow out of which they have now passed that has no lasting effects. They still have the old explanations as a functional lens on reality and must be literally washed from an uncleanness that is non-creating speech. Thus Baptism: the BODY gets sprinkled, yet the soul and spirit and whole new creature in Jesus Christ is cleansed as well as the body.)
As an answer to the guy ( "author" Bart Ehrman ) on the NPR interview and those like him: God has failed in nothing. YOUR failure to understand God proves lack of free will. That is all. The fact you are "teacher" of religion is indicative of moral collapse in the United States. Seeing as how you failed at it ( really , you failed at Churchianity) so miserably by public admission, perhaps you could simply ..stop. You obviously believe you have the free will to do so as you believe you personally are investigating such questions with your own free will "for the rest of us".
But since you are a seducer of those of faith to unbelief to be dissuaded based on your emotional lies ( as if such was even possible ) for your sake:
You cannot EMOTIONALLY reconcile "a good God making evil/suffering" --at all. But when you say "I can't follow the Christian God because of evil and massive suffering in the world" what your speech has really said is that your own heart is your god and you thought you would fool God all along.
God Says "Proverbs 28:26 He that confideth in his own heart is a fool;... " while your speech has said "No human being can do anything but follow their own heart." There is a point in following God as He does it through us, at which you cannot "keep" your old identity AND follow God. "You" must die. What your speech has done is justify you defending your own heart as a seat of identity that is "you".
When you were deceived you had free will, you were also deceived as a result of the lie of free will that you had to manufacture identity from the available:
1. time period of history in which you were born
2. ideologies available to you in that time period: "what was known of the present and the past"
3. "will" you had as "ability"
You were deceived you had to do this because part of what the lie of free will does is make it seem YOU have to distinguish yourself from other people and can only do so per the use of will you demonstrate. Such supposed demonstrations add up, in that deception, to a whole identity over time that is further twisted into "you are what you make of yourself".
But in Christ, it is plain every human being is unique and cannot be like any other no matter the period of history in which they were born --they can't miss out on uniqueness --or give it away.
So at exactly the point you began to defend your heart is exactly the point you made it plain to God you ACTUALLY thought He was killing YOU --not the deception of who you were in front of you that the lie had caused you to be bewitched with. That is, you were still deceived saying "Christian" things. You actually have to die to your old self as God newly births you. The old self is what actually existed --not the deception. The old heart is done away by getting a new heart. You can't do that yourself. The things you thought you had gained as "part of you" in the lie of free will never were. They were attempts to steal from you what you really were.
Thus, to those with ears to hear , God says:
Matthew 6:19-21 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust spoils, and where thieves dig through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust spoils, and where thieves do not dig through nor steal; for where thy treasure is, there will be also thy heart.
People who hear that are those who in suffering are turned to God in that they die and thus their suffering is the occasion of their greatest comfort, yet as not merely "learning to love negative emotions" as we are falsely accused. The new birth isn't always pretty. But it is real. They do not circle the wagons around an emotional response set that was a lie from its beginnings. As for men in particular, even though it is the same for women as regards themselves being born again at times and afterwards:
Jeremiah 30:6,7 Ask ye now, and see, whether a male doth travail with child? Wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail; and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
When YOU die and you know it, when all the lies that you thought were "old truths" are stripped from you on top of all the actual deaths of what is inside you, that can be ..disorienting in that you now focus exclusively on Jesus Christ whereas before you were focused on defending and expanding "identity" through free will means that was always a lie. As you die, you see what was one with you die ( only you don't usually understand that that is what it is at the time..). You are watching sin that was attached to you in exactly the same manner as the "two become one flesh" of marriage be dissolved in death.
Thus God Says:
Romans 7:1-6 Are ye ignorant, brethren, (for I speak to those knowing law,) that law rules over a man as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband so long as he is alive; but if the husband should die, she is clear from the law of the husband: so then, the husband being alive, she shall be called an adulteress if she be to another man; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, though she be to another man. So that, my brethren, *ye* also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions of sins, which were by the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit to death; but now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
--------------
On that same note, some of which was noted in the NPR program:
1. evil things happen to good people all the time no matter what "they" supposedly do.
2. The lie of free will has no answers for anything, ( not typos, not why most successful things in life must be done over and over to get the desired result and even then we hardly ever do get it.. as for typos --is the free will running ahead of itself?) much less why people suffer righteously.
3. a fake war "between" good and evil in no way obscures the reality that God's actions are good all the time even though He creates good and evil as regards creatures.
4. Dualism and fatalism is the end game of the lie of free will --not Calvinism. Free willers end up thinking of a "good God" and "evil God" ( or sets of "gods" on sides" ) battling it out with them the hapless passer-by and then go on to a vanity to be hopeless.
------------
1Timothy 1:5-11 But the end of what is enjoined is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith which things some having missed, have turned aside to vain discourse, desiring to be law-teachers, not understanding either what they say or concerning what they so strenuously affirm. Now we know that the law is good if any one uses it lawfully, knowing this, that law has not its application to a righteous person, but to the lawless and insubordinate, to the impious and sinful, to the unholy and profane, to smiters of fathers and smiters of mothers; to murderers, fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers; and if any other thing is opposed to sound teaching, according to the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God, with which *I* have been entrusted.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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)The fact that Bart no longer believes does not prove his own lack of free will. Why would his teaching religion be indicative of the moral collapse of America if he doesn't have free will?
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )lack of morality is being taught at all. And yes it does prove his lack of free will: he went in to Christianity in full confidence it was true and he would hold on to a free will version of Christianity and yet could not even do that. He came to a point where he perfectly understood he had to die in order to live and he could not do that and be under the control of a lie that says he has free will. God gave him over, at least for the time being, to the lie.
You are stuck on a thought that goes: if there is no free will, there is no right and wrong, no good and evil: no morality.
That is simply a figment of the lie of free will saying that outside of itself there is no truth. You may keep thinking it, but it is not true that "no free will equals no sin or evil or good" in Man.
God came to die on the cross for real effects that are quite outside any "free will" of Man.
I'll grant you you have grown up in a world in which the lie of free will has been taught from every angle so as to make it seem Truth and so hearing you don't have free will can be disorienting.
Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah hath wrought everything on His own account..,
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )E-SHRINE: an 8-bit connection to God.
Bless you all, and don't forget to try the veal.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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)The post itself? The 300 + comments?
Somebody please fill me in.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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)within the constraints of a dogmatic, often opaque diary with lots of elliptical quotes from scripture.
Personally, it was the subthread on quantum mechanical experiments (really) that caught my eye.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I have a real hard time readin diaries + posts w. bolded Bible verses, and it's only a lil more difficult to read responses.
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| parent )What am I? Chopped liver?! That's the thanks I get for trying to save all of Christendom from "Julian the Apostate"?! Sheeesh.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )it was an interest in discussing a point of view so alien that I had never heard anyone make these arguments (outside of a "Devil's advocate" type of position - oh, dear, I'm sure that phrase will indicate something bad about free will), but it's devolved as it's become increasingly clear that there's really no argument being made, jut assertions.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )the quantum discussions. There is a lot of info that forvm readers are willing to share and one can always do with more clarifications. Arguing your case also helps to sort things out in your head.
And yes this is my last entry here.
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| parent )You have just proved one of the diarist's claims that I spent fifteen minutes trying to refute. Thanks a ton. Would you mind looking at your forehead in the mirror and reporting back what you see there?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Can't be anything but an effort to return to a "normal" state of ..free will. Literally, to get the free will "back".
The existence of demons is universally declared among all "religions" and cannot be denied.
So for you free willers out there: how do the demons control anything? What is the purpose of exorcism beyond trying to "get personal control back"?
The grace in this instance of knowing there is no free will is that those who understand that have the Presence of God in us and He doesn't share. We literally have less occult activity in our flesh ( which is still corrupt and a seat of sin but we are not our flesh..) than those pagan cultures that God has graced with acknowledging evil and demonic activity and yet seek only relief from demons to supposedly "resume" personal control when they are not seeking out demons as "gods" to possess them to gain temporary "spiritual insights" --that are supposedly will-neutral and supposedly never interfere with the will of the possessed before, during or afterwards.
Mark 1:23-27 And there was in their synagogue a man possessed by an unclean spirit, and he cried out saying, Eh! what have we to do with thee, Jesus, Nazarene? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the holy one of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace and come out of him. And the unclean spirit, having torn him, and uttered a cry with a loud voice, came out of him. And all were amazed, so that they questioned together among themselves, saying, What is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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)First, this sounds suspiciously like some of the central precepts of Scientology. Demons rip our flesh - argh! (Of course, Scientology uses the claim of universal infection by malevolent imps to charge you thousands of bucks per can for demon repellent spray, using the money to support the lavish lifestyles of their bosses while they wait for the technology needed to revivify Hubbard.)
I guess I qualify as one of those "Free-willers" by your definition; you ask "how do the demons control anything?" Answer: they don't. (Unless you're talking about Maxwell's Demon. They are a figment of your imagination. But don't feel alone, as they also are an essential part of Santaria, which has Cristian roots, too.
Your lack of knowledge of other religions, which I've pointed out to you before, is painfully obvious in this statement:
The existence of demons is universally declared among all "religions" and cannot be denied.
There are two glaring issues here: if you know anything about world religions, you know that there is nothing universal to all of them. But even more basic, any religious belief can be "denied" by people who don't believe in that religion, or in religion in general. Calling that "denial" is turning the matter on its head, and represents a patently obvious attempt to brand non-believers as abnormal (your word), wrong, unenlightened, living in mortal sin, blah blah blah. The old "my way or the highway" approach to proselytizing in action.
Do you know the specific technique that the piously Catholic Spanish conquistadors used to enlighten the pagan religious in Central and South America?
To me, this comes pretty close to saying that everyone here who believes in science is possessed by demons, which would then mean we have to join your church (the one true religion, according to you, through whom God speaks) or risk eternal hellfire and damnation. If that's what you believe, why don't you come right out and say it? It won't turn me into a pillar of salt - I don't think.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )and really look at what you said.
Now I'm posting 'like a scientologist'? Scientology can't survive minus the lie of free will.
World religions are famous for being so similar and yet supposedly "arose independently" from each other. It has always been a question: why are they all so similar? Why did many arise at almost the same time in regions far distant from each other? How is it they shared so many similarities?
I.E. How is it that in a population of unique people, all of whom are absolutely distinct from each other, did they keep coming up with same supposed solutions to solve the same problems that arose in each group? How could that be?
Because they all had non-creating speech. Thus, the inability to create unique thought in them made them essentially all the same. The real distinctions between them are in the names of the deities -- which is explained in God dividing the non-creating speech at Babel.
I think your speech wishes the variety of religious activity in the world had a different character than it actually does. But its desires do not equal truth.
Genesis 11:5-9 And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower which the children of men built. And Jehovah said, Behold, the people is one, and have all one language; and this have they begun to do. And now will they be hindered in nothing that they meditate doing. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth. And they left off building the city. Therefore was its name called Babel; because Jehovah there confounded the language of the whole earth. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )I said this:
this sounds suspiciously like some of the central precepts of Scientology.
You said this:
Now I'm posting 'like a scientologist'?
Words have meaning, regardless of your theories about non-free speech and the like.
You continue to make generalizations that indicate a very limited, Christian-centric view about world religions. As an example, try reconciling Buddhism, Shintoism, Baha'i, Sikkism, or Confucianism with your religious views. And how about the hundreds of millions of the world's people who follow faiths like Javanese animism? Do you really know enough about Chinese folk religions, or African indigenous religions, to make your sweeping dismissals of them valid? Saying that the main difference between these religions is what they call their god is very revealing of your mindset, which is intent on making everything in the world fit into your own particular form of Christianity. as shown by your Tower of Babel reference.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I do not know all those people. Nor can I. Nor can anyone. Even you. That would be part of lack of free will. But God has provided His understanding to those whom He will. Your continued implication that I am a base liar who simply has made up that no free will exists --in free will-- is plain. All you have done is simply repeat what that speech in you does constantly: imply ( someone, for the present me.. ) has used their free will improperly and have put forth supposed "secularly holy" directions on how I ought to have used it to make up for my supposed error.
The generalizations your speech has made are simply bizarre. What is even stranger is your assumption that what you have said are sound universals I have supposedly transgressed --in free will, even after you understood the purpose of the diary was to show the advantages of knowing you don't have free will. If you do not have that grace, you cannot earn it and certainly not by twisting your deceptions on me. You have dogmatically stated ..many things; have yet to prove any of them and simply sought to misdirect the diary entry into a emotional response set that you think appeals to ..everybody. And that is really the sum of all your arguments: "if what you are saying is true my heart makes no sense."
You need a new heart to get the advantages those who understand the diary have obtained. Their blessing is in no way thwarted because you don;t understand. You will note the top few sentences of the diary entry itself made plain that those other than brethren of Jesus Christ could not understand.
2 Timothy 3:8,9 Now in the same manner in which Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, thus these also withstand the truth; men corrupted in mind, found worthless as regards the faith. But they shall not advance farther; for their folly shall be completely manifest to all, as that of those also became.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )once again you have a problem with consistency.
The existence of demons is universally declared among all "religions" and cannot be denied.
I will allow that there is probably something in most religions about demons.
However, you have just pointed out that these very religions are free will based.
Since you believe that these religions are false you cannot offer them as proof of anything, free will or otherwise.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )those who have held them forth to be "real" are witnesses themselves to the truth that their best honesty has always been that exorcism is nothing but a supposed restoration of a free will they said actually exists and most said could not be gotten out of because God supposedly forced it on us.
I.E. They are witnesses that their own "logic" and dogma contradicts itself: how can demons "take" what they say cannot be avoided? And could the demons then be driven off to "take back" what is inviolate at all, much less with more of non-creating speech?
That would include Roman Catholics.
Ask a Roman Catholic: what is the purpose of exorcism? Beyond a kind of no-brainer "to get rid of the demon" ..there is that silence of understanding their doctrine of free will cannot be true and the demon have "taken over" in their understanding of identity linked inextricably with free will. Yet demons do take over at times.
Ask a Hindu.
A Muslim.
A Zoroastrian.
An Animist.
It is all the same thing. All supposedly for the same reason: to take "back " a free will that was supposedly unavoidable and inviolate.
Why the incense in the houses? Why the charms? Why the sacred relics? Why the whole industry? Of course it is for no other reason than to "protect" what is ALSO said to be inviolate and unavoidable. It is all contradictory and plainly so. But the truth is never contradictory. Everyone knows that as well.
The demons are real. The free will is not.
"Cannot offer"? You are too used to talking to those deceived they have free will.
I am not denying at all that demonic infiltration and possession take place. But they do not come to "take over" the freedom of will of the person. The person never had free will. The demons are simply part of the lie that free will exists at all for any but God.
Note what God Says about the worst kind of demonic possession coming to a temporary end and states plainly of the same result in an entire generation as the mass of the people:
Matthew 12:43-45 But when the unclean spirit has gone out of the man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and does not find it . Then he says, I will return to my house whence I came out; and having come, he finds it unoccupied, swept, and adorned. Then he goes and takes with himself seven other spirits worse than himself, and entering in, they dwell there; and the last condition of that man becomes worse than the first. Thus shall it be to this wicked generation also.
That would include those of that generation that were being used as demonic toys to "throw out demons" with "holy water, sacred relics and hours..." of vilification of the demon.
Compare the emotion centric, object throwing, sweat-fest theater of modern exorcism with real deliverance from demons:
Luke 9:37-42 And it came to pass on the following day, when they came down from the mountain, a great crowd met him. And lo, a man from the crowd cried out saying, Teacher, I beseech thee look upon my son, for he is mine only child: and behold, a spirit takes him, and suddenly he cries out, and it tears him with foaming, and with difficulty departs from him after crushing him. And I besought thy disciples that they might cast him out, and they could not. And Jesus answering said, O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you and suffer you? Bring hither thy son. But as he was yet coming, the demon tore him and dragged him all together. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child and gave him back to his father.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )The phenomenal world is an illusion, and the only thing that exists is a common universal intelligence called Brahman identified with the Self. I am not willing to enter into discussions with you because I think we do not share the same assumptions - I am merely pointing out facts about the faith.
I am hesitant to quote chapter and verse, as it involves considerable study, but if you wish you could start with some of the basic texts.
A brief glimpse is quoted thus in the Sacred Texts Archive.
As I have mentioned before, and some other commenters here have pointed out as well, your conclusions on free will come pretty close to some forms of both Buddhism and Hinduism. I personally have no problem with that, since Hinduism is a heterodox faith with many interpretations, but I fear you will find it hard to convince a Christian of their validity in the context of Christian faith. It is certainly not compatible with the Nicene Creed.
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| parent )While you may be required to say that to honor the goddess who supposedly destroyed all demons.. for some supposed benefit to yourself..
But then why does the Hindu pantheon supposedly come together to vanquish them in times of "unbalance"?
no Rakshasa?
no [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_(Demon)] Kali [/url]?
Your Hinduism may or may not be the same as the Hinduism of those who explain Hinduism. That could be. You may be required as being of a certain caste to "not know" certain things. Some religions hide their best honesty in favor of other spirits. Some in some religions are forced to say things patently not true yet if admitted to be false would anger the supposed gods.
But you are still left with evil manifestations that are in reality part of that "common universal intelligence" that effect something.
The Hindu text you quoted is simply code for "the free will as the self cannot end or do anything."
Hindu exorcism must be an illusion as well.
None of these are true?
If have free will does not exist you cannot be belittled by someone else who sees through the deception under which you suffer.
Christians are forced to confront everything. Even the uncomfortable. God does it through us or it would never happen. But that only proves God is not stopped by multi-tiered emotional response systems that have genuinely enslaved men.
People are more valuable than false gods pretend.
Job 12:16 With Him is strength and effectual knowledge; the deceived and the deceiver are His.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )texts.
I don't really want to argue the point with you as your knowledge and understanding of Hinduism is extremely superficial, and there isn't any point in discussing the issues until you have read the texts.
There are over 33,000 sects of Hinduism with their own practices. But until you understand the philosophy behind the practices you will not understand the essential structure of Hinduism. The philosophy behind Hinduism is what you would call a strict atheism; to understand why and how that is, is a lifetime's pursuit. The concepts are extremely layered. It is not a simple uncomplicated belief system like Christianity/Islam can be with simple rules, structures and end points. Of course, I find that both philosohic Christianity or Islam are not particularly simple either.
I could quote texts at you the way you do to illustrate my points, but I do not think it would make a difference to your understanding. You have to read the texts yourself and understand for yourself. In fact to really understand, you would have to learn Sanskrit.
The Internet Sacred Text Archive is a good place to start if you seriously wish to get started with the understanding of the translations.
If you are not interested, I would suggest that you do not perpetuate your superficial exegesis of Hinduism in this forum; confine yourself to quotations from the Bible, which you seem to know well, to illustrate your points.
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| parent )but what you have just said is:
Hinduism can only be understood by a lifetime of study. Which you could not have finished by definition. That is, having so many levels and so many things up ahead to understand, per the general doctrine of many religions that "more doctrine will answer all the questions" you could not have arrived at some end point of certainty. Yet you are certain you are on the right path to it?
As well, "my superficial exegesis" is taken from easily accessible web references that I obviously did not write myself and were not written the day I linked to them. Are they all superficial?
Your speech has stated Hinduism has no demons. Yet there are exorcisms and names of demons. Some spirits seek to say yes and no are the same thing. Yet they are not the same thing.
Here is the thing: I am pointing out the advantages of understanding no creature has free will.
Suddenly, after going through many layers of discussion:
no one wants to address the truth
and wants to not discuss what they have claimed refutes lack of free will in other than simple dogmatic terms while accusing me of dogmatism
I would note that mind control as the free will lie works and some are perhaps coming up against triggers, either emotional or mental that may prohibit that discussion --if they actually had free will.
I do not at all underestimate non-creating speech.
Understanding that you never had free will delivers you as well from the fear that someone took it and you can never get it back unless you do what they say. That includes invisible someones who actually exists, but not as they say.
The depth of truth is plainly evident to all. It is anything but superficial. The truth is true everywhere without restraint, not just up to the point of religious dogma. Shall I now do the stereotype of the religionist and smile vainly as if appealing to emotion as a god? Are you not a valuable human soul as are all who read?
If they be gods, let them defend themselves. These things are better done in speech than with knives and bullets later because none understood past Mom, Pop and tradition. As God is in me I am prepared to state the truth and prove it as God allows.
Hebrews 2:14-18 Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage. For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand , but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham. Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people; for, in that himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those that are being tempted.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )1. I cannot rationally discuss a subject with you if you will not take the trouble to read the background literature.
2. The first thing you need to understand that there is no "religion" called "Hinduism". Hindu's do not call themselves Hindus - other people do.
3. Hinduism is not like Christianity or Islam where there is a single canonical text that can be learnt and quoted as a gospel. You have to understand this fundamental difference. The Hindu canonical texts have many directly contradictory features often in the same page.
4. Hinduism is not a single monolithic religion. One can believe in 1 God or 330 million gods or be an overt atheist abd find support for all those positions in the texts. You can worship a penis or a vagina or eat ritually out of a skull or take drugs and have thousand year old texts supporting your position. You can worship cows, bulls, bushes, rats, owls, rivers, mountains, rocks, icicles, motor cars, factories, if you wish - there are several large volumes of prayers for each. You can be a vegetarian, vegan, beef eater or even a carrion eater. There is no sexual fantasy that you can have that is not described in the canonical texts. Every form of human behaviour has a place in the canon. You can stay at that superficial level if you wish or you can learn about the philosophical underpinnings if you wish - it is left entirely to the individual.
5. You can pick and choose from the texts as you like to construct your own particular fantasy or combination of fantasies and still find support for your position.
6. Once you have understood this, you will be better able to understand why Hindus do not speak of good and bad actions as moral absolutes, and why there in no concept of sins, or hells or an eternal heaven - the only eternal is change.
7. Hinduism is not an evangelical faith. For example, you will notice that you are trying to persuade me of the correctness of what you believe is Christian truth while I am not persuading you to accept anything I say, and I am not trying to convert you.
8. This is why you need to understand that reading some articles in Wikipedia will not help you to understand Hinduism. If you wish to really work through the literature, start with a simple basic text like the Bhagavad Gita. You will then need to read the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The next step is to tackle the Vedas themselves and then the Vedanta. After that you may start on the Vedanta Sutra. After that I recommend you start on the any one of the six schools of orthodox philosophy, possibly in your case the Yoga school, as you already have some understanding of theism. Following that you can choose whether you wish to study the Buddhist objections to Hinduism, or spend your time meditating in the Himalayas. I have only suggested a very brief outline for about 15 years of study. After that you will not have a problem in making your own way and participating in discussions on Hindu philosophy. And you can remain true to Christianity during the whole period or afterwards and remain unconvinced by and critical of Hinduism.
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| parent )of course the existence of demons can be denied. Just because a bunch of old superstitious myths talk about them doesn't make them real. What's next, denial of heliocentrism?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I'm not sure you can necessarily demolish that argument philosophically. Unless you say (as some faiths do) that good cannot be normative.
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| parent )I'm an atheist, so it's pretty easy for me to postulate that superstitious myths have no bearing on reality. YMMV.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )only to have someone else help you "get it back" is..
nonsense?
The nonsense of religious or medical EMS so to speak...? Is your free will intact as you sleep? Pass out? Have a heart attack? A stroke ..for instance?
Luke 18:1-8 And he spoke also a parable to them to the purport that they should always pray and not faint, saying, There was a judge in a city, not fearing God and not respecting man: and there was a widow in that city, and she came to him, saying, Avenge me of mine adverse party. And he would not for a time; but afterwards he said within himself, If even I fear not God and respect not man, at any rate because this widow annoys me I will avenge her, that she may not by perpetually coming completely harass me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge says. And shall not God at all avenge his elect, who cry to him day and night, and he bears long as to them? I say unto you that he will avenge them speedily. But when the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth?
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )and yes, if you are not conscious you don't have ... well, anything. There's no "you" when you're unconscious.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )even the nonsensical, simply to keep up the front of free will.
You go away when you sleep? How do you come back when you regain consciousness?
On the basis of what your speech just said through you lacking free will is the same as being as worthless as the dead. Those in the Netherlands are euthanzing/murdering people and killing babies ( not just abortion, but after birth as well) explicitly: "because they have no free will." such as the comatose, elderly and disabled.
If you wonder how they could be such monsters, your speech just answered that question.
Understand clearly that as long as you seem to contribute to a falsely idealized pool of free will that everybody else has falsely idealized themselves to be able to draw from when they need or want it, you lose all value as total being , according to your argument, even to yourself.
So we don;t have to wonder how the Nazi's became Nazi's. They had your common sense.
The purpose of the article was to warn all diligently away from what may at first appear to be advantageous philosophy that has always ended in death for all concerned and others around them.
Psalm 106:36-38 And they served their idols; and they were a snare unto them: And they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons, And shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan; and the land was polluted with blood.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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| parent )of course "you" go away when you become unconscious, and "you" return when you regain consciousness. It has nothing to do with abortion, infanticide, euthanasia or anything else. As to how one "comes back" when regaining consciousness, you'll have to wait until we have a decent definition of consciousness before that can be answered. But of course that won't matter to you, because of the delusion that you alone have been informed by God as to the true nature of things. BTW, you still haven't provided any proof of the lack of free will, you just keep repeating it over and over again.
Also, knock off the Nazi comparisons. Everyone else here has been civil in this conversation, you need to be too.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )A note on the lie of free will's defense mechanism within the fallen human heart and the advantage of getting an outright new heart and new spirit in the new birth in Jesus Christ:
the tiers can explicitly be seen as emotional perimeters/barbed wire intended to keep victim in and truth out if possible
tier one: standard emotional response set: defense of "self" the free will has supposedly won for the victim via it "acts" ( as opposed and in ignorance of the unique identity God has already bestowed on each human being )
emotional response set is instilled over time via observation of the world through the false lens of "free will" and the assumption everybody else has free will "too" What do they get angry over? When do they cry? What is love? What is happiness? What produces smiles on que? Laughter on que? The instilling is via hearing more non-creating speech combined with what they speech does as a spirit in the flesh when witnessing others via visual stimulus
tier two: what appears as supra-ideologies that take precedence over the first tier, which is always held forth and reinforced as the de facto defining characteristic of "what makes us human". I.E. Anyone lacking the first tier emotional response set "has problems" and is in need of "help"
The supra-ideologies come in as those that trump tier one in situations where tier one is insufficient to make emotional common sense of some event. Thus tier two is usually religious in nature. Because it trumps tier one it is the "thing" to aspire to as either "ascending", or "becoming" one who no longer needs tier one.
An example of tier two in action would be: Religious leader gets shot. Those in tier one want the head of the guy who shot the religious leader on a platter. It is the emotional common sense of tier one as simple defense of self extended to other people. BUT: Religious leader "forgives" the one who shot them; thus freedom from tier one is demonstrated and power outside those of tier one is demonstrated while simultaneously tier one is held to be important enough by the religious leader to preserve a body with tier one inside it alive and "free" --the perpetrator of the shooting.
As well, because tier two is usually a religious phenomenon in practice, those who aspire to it are always getting rules and fixes for tier one that are implied to "lift one up" to tier two. Thus the "working on the heart" constant message/massage of false religious teachers. The emotional /religious doctrines are supposed evidence of benevolence as part of proof one is a tier-twoer. Thus their "power"..
The whole thing is nothing more than a device to keep those deceived they have free will in emotional busywork as a treadmill that might as well be a straightforward concentration camp of emotional subsistence living by those within it. Tier two also functions as guard towers that must "discipline" emotional transgressors "so as to get them back on the path to becoming a tier twoer.
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In the new birth in Jesus Christ, we receive a new heart and new spirit: not a "fix" of the old heart. We cannot control that new birth.
John 3:7,8 Do not wonder that I said to thee, It is needful that *ye* should be born anew. The wind blows where it will, and thou hearest its voice, but knowest not whence it comes and where it goes: thus is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The advantage of knowing we don not have free will is that the deceptions of those of tier one or two have no effect in that we know we are powerless to effect change in ourselves. Thus while we do in truth have to wait on God, we cannot, as God lives in us, "do" tier one or two as we have an outright different heart --not the same heart that simply has a unique emotional "skill set".
Thus we are strangers to those in tier one and threats to those of tier two in that they are plainly seen as frauds and liars. Thus non-creating speech through those not or not-yet born again constantly call us names that supposedly indicate some emotional catastrophe will ensure if their emotional response set is transgressed. So it will be to the end.
Jesus Christ makes plain how wicked and nonsensical the world's emotional response set is:
Matthew 11:16-19 But to whom shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the markets, which, calling to their companions, say, We have piped to you, and ye have not danced: we have mourned to you, and ye have not wailed. For John has come neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He has a demon. The Son of man has come eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a man that is eating and wine-drinking, a friend of tax-gatherers, and of sinners: --and wisdom has been justified by her children.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
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)Could you front page this diary please. I know it hasn't got enough votes but the subthreads are excellent IMO, check out the ongoing discussion between HP and tomsyl.
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)-o-0--o-
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I'm confused by your distinction between Civil Rights and Jefferson's language in the Declaration. You make it sound like the first makes pretenses to free will where the other one is an example of perfect negative liberty.
As you know, Dr. King saw the Civil Rights movement of the 60s as a direct lineal descendent of the Declaration. Using financial language you ought to appreciate, he said
You quote the Declaration, but not the 3/5 Compromise drafted by the same men.
You don't mention the Dred Scott decision or the Fugitive Slave Act which both rest on the assumption that free men may execute free will upon "all other Persons."
Dr. King's message is not an identity politics message, has nothing to do with securing the "right to be black" -- his agenda was to complete the promise of an America built on truly negative liberty.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)If there is no free will, then the future is preordained. If the future is preordained, then nothing, nothing at all, is random. Therefore, if randomness exists, the future is not preordained. If the future is not preordained, our actions can influence what happens in the future. If we have the ability to affect and change our future, we have free will.
That random events occur that directly affect the future is easily proven. We'll use a modification of the well-known Schroedinger's Cat experiment. Here's how it will work: a scintillation counter will measure the number of particles emitted by teh radium of the hands of my Mickey Mouse watch for a fixed time period of, say, a minute. That numerical count will be diplayed at the end of the time period. I will be sitting on a chair waiting to see that number; in my hand will be a squirt gun filled with noxious liquid (Rainier beer, for example).
If the number on the scintillation counter readout is even, I will spray myself in the face with the squirt gun. Odd number, I spray my dog, which is sitting obediently at my feet wondering at the strange behavior of humans.
Question: who gets it, me or the dog? Answer: no one knows until we actually run the experiment. Why? Because the decay of atomic nuclei of a radioactive element is random over time. (If you deny this, you are denying a principle of particle physics that was resolved more than a hundred years ago. Denying it would be like denying your foot will hurt ten times out of ten if I drop an anvil on it.)) Therefore, the outcome shows that the future is not predetermined; I used my free will id deciding that I would spray either myself or the poor doggie with mediocre (putting it kindly) beer, based on the even/odd outcome of the particle count.
(Of course, I made this up as I went along, and Rainier is about the only beer I would actually waste in an experiment like this. Consider it it as a thought experiment I exercised my free will to devise.) Anyway, over to you, timothy.
Edit: The experiment needs tweaking. (Hey, scientists do this all the time - why can't I?) If I count the particles emitted from the decay of nuclei of a radioactive element over a long enough time period, I unintentionally would have made a super-accurate atomic clock. So let's ratchet the time period down from a minute to, say, a femtosecond. Decay: squirt dog. No decay: squirt self. That should do it.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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)I've been trying to work it out since about 4:22, scribbling away on the back of Guerrero's cigarette pack.
I've convinced myself that if you drop an anvil on your foot ten times, you won't actually feel it "hurt ten times".
I'm pretty sure you just keep feeling that first one.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )According to Arthur C. Clarke, "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from pizza."
QED
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )1. randomness does not occur as an absolute. "Randomness" is simply code for "you can't control it." as in "no free will." Now you've posited the lack of free will of "nature" as well so that what is idealized to be
rigorously and perfectly repetitive as a process ( radioactive decay ) isn't. Supposedly it is "supposed to be" ..somewhere ..that can't be found. That it doesn't match up to the idealization doesn't mean YOU have free will.
Your ( and particle physicists ( you will recall it has already been noted that free willer science is interested in finding only that which keeps the lie of free will intact..)) assump