The Diary Delete Option Is Being removed.
Recently a diarist deleted his diary and the hundred or so comments that had been made in it. Though that option has always been there, none of us remember it being used like this before. A diary deletion is irreversible, even by HankP.
The moderators have decided the diary delete option should be removed for a number of reasons. First, many members have put time and energy into commenting, particularly on controversial diary subjects. Sometimes those comments morph into long exchanges in entirely different areas, and contain interesting and useful links. To the extent there is an intellectual property issue here, if the diary belongs to the diarist, those comments belong to the commenters, and shouldn't be deleted without their consent.
Also, diaries are essentially the history of this site, and are preserved forever. If someone wants to look at every comment I've made on Al Gore, for example, they can search the site and find each one. Another minor point: to the extent posting rules were violated in either the diary itself or in comments, there is a record of any warnings or suspensions that resulted, which could be significant in a dispute over the propriety of the moderators' actions.
In short, we like the way that everything that is said on the record here stays on the record, so our chief cook and bottle-washer, that inestimable Renaissance man HankP, will be disabling the diary delete option. The moderators will still have the ability to delete drive-bys, solicitations and the like, but have never in my memory used that to delete bona fide diaries from Forvm members. Nor will they.
--
Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
- tomsyl's blog
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Whether I reply or not, I can't hit "Home" after reading a comment and remain logged in. Nor can I reload the page without being asked to resubmit.
Happens on IE, Firefox and Chrome...
Anyone else experiencing this?
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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)the site was largely unregulated before, and then someone went and took advantage of it. So I made the changes requested, and not so surprisingly there were some negative side affects. I'm sure I'll be able to fix them over time. But remember what the source of the regulation was - not the big liberal who administers the site, but the user who took advantage of a loophole that got everyone annoyed. Now when conservatives complain about regulation they have this handy example to show them how it works in real life.
BTW, I just made some changes that should fix the problem you're experiencing, let me know if it continues.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I have to decide between having another blue-collar domestic beer versus an insouciant, almost brash, but still somewhat corrugated Sonoma pinot blanc. Given what you believe you know about my politics, what would you advise so that this can be some type of an object lesson?
Seriously, when I posted this diary I naively believed the IP angle would be a side issue. The fact that it's prompted hundreds of posts shows more about the nature of the people who hang out here than it does about the real world.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Started off by the comment - "on a related topic".
Shouldn't that tell you more about the nature of people who hang out here (disclaimer, I contributed too)?
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| parent ).
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent ).
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent ).
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )...to put a good one together.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )I skimmed through those comments as fast as my scroll bar (heh) would let me to avoid wincing at all the circumcision talk, so maybe I missed it - did you surrender your foreskin for science?
All I can say is "Schmuck!"*
_________
--*Meaning, of course, the Yiddish word for foreskin. Details here.
Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )the tone, that is, with science, of course. catchy OTOH...
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| parent )The vast majority of comments here concern the posters' penises and comparisons of same. It just that it's generally less overt that the recent thread.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )nt
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| parent )My next laptop will not have a built-in webcam.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )so you can stop talking about your penises and start doing something useful with them.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )about ordering flan next time.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )It seems to be working just fine.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )That said, the main point, as usual, is "might makes right". Blaise doesn't think he did anything wrong. A bunch of other people that outnumber him do. So they prevent his "taking advantage" of the system. Your annoyance is Blaise's cherished right, which you stripped away in your desire to do good (as defined by you and a majority.)
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )I'm a real person, so are you and the others who participate here. You want to argue that this is any less real than the electronic banking system?
"Might makes right" is absolutely incorrect. I have all the might I need, but I didn't make any changes until the mods asked me to. You do know how representative democracy works. right? And that the police serve under elected representatives and not over them? I'm starting to wonder.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Valuable benefits are yours if you fill out the enclosed form and return it with your credit card data and ATM password. Dial-a-Victim(tm) has an excellent track record in obtaining government benefits for people who have been victimized (although they may not know it yet) by paparozzi, the idle rich, aliens (we specialize in abductions) and in your case, people with funny names who believe they see angels hovering over them.
Don't miss the chance of a lifetime - call now!!
Offer prohibited in jurisdictions that prosecute mail fraud. This is not a solicitation. Your money will be kept, and we will do nothing in return. You agree to indemnify us against the coming of the Prophet. We reserve the right to sell your personal data to Albanian gang members. Sucka.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )to justify feeling like a victim on a day when I've been granted a truly marvelous secret.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )(Raw raw raw! That's the spirits we have here.)
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )people with Scottish Gaelic handles ask silly questions. The new Drupal is amazing!
But yeah, I'm having a similar problem, getting (quasi) logged out when I hit the home page. Seems to keep me logged in, but I see the name/pw form fields.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )But what led you to believe that a small widget was right for me?
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )nt
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)-0-0-0-
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent ).
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Surely one of the classic quotes of the new century, and applicable to almost any situation. Even if it may be apocryphal.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )er, excuse me, Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, who knows when to drop a judicious AYBABTA.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )The loss of all those Tacitus posts and diaries was profound. All that time and effort up in smoke. Editing good, deleting bad.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)It was an act of supreme arrogance. Everything was his, nothing ours. His words meant something, ours didn't. For some reason I was getting his newsletter (or whatever he calls it) by email; into the spambox it went.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )it all comes down to trusting the domain owner and/or the sysadmin. The way the internet is set up the only alternative is setting up a non-profit foundation and having the sysadmin on some sort of contract. Difficult and time consuming for all but the largest sites.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )There was an important site in the audio electronics area, with years of accumulated knowledge and wisdom of the author (entirely in his own words, with no commenting feature). For personal reasons he decided not to update it a few years ago, and it was about to be lost when AOL canceled its free hosting services. I captured the entire site and all of its links using Scrapbook, and am waiting for his permission to anonymously host it myself purely as an archive so the information isn't lost. Trevino could have allowed the same thing simply by warning us that years of diaries and comments were about to be deleted. He didn't.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )(which I share). However, in our society ownership means something, and in this case it means no recourse for non-owners. You can try shaming or ostracizing the guy, but the internet is not the kind of society where that works very well.
I suppose someone could have sued him at the time concerning the ownership of their diaries and comments (I don't remember what kind of IP license the site had, if any), but it probably wouldn't have made any sense because of the state of IP law and the time and expense involved.
So, you live and learn. Did I mention I'm wiping this site in a week and relaunching it as an e-commerce site for Roman themed sex toys?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I don't care about losing my stuff from the "old site" (which is a misnomer); It's a new week and I'm temporarily short on things to bitch about. It was pretty high-handed, but BFD. AFA shaming him, I'll leave him to his own, ah, devices (not the kind you'll be selling here, I hope).
I don't minimize the part about IP ownership; the implied ownership of "works" is an important protection for authors, software designers and so forth. Given that, and that I am not actually peeved, it makes sense for me to delete all of my and your comments to this diary, I'm thinnin'.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I wasn't particularly surprised; wingnut welfare does not allow for the sort of nuanced posts he started with, and it wasn't reasonable to delete only up to the last couple months of the site.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )If Trevino had stated from the beginning that tacitus.org might be deleted without warning when it suited him, most of us would have thought twice before spending any time on diaries or detailed comments. And if he had given some warning before deletion, all or some portion of it could have been saved. Again, while legally this may be an IP issue, I don't think one can stop there in terms of fairness regarding the expectations of those that participated. Without the comments and diaries from others, tacitus.org would have amounted to very little.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )but I do think that the move was absolutely necessary for his career, and so he did it.
The guy who started the site and the guy who killed the site were two very different guys. The first was a dude who had some appreciation for the limits of any philosophy. The second was a Wingnut Warrior. People change. Once he did, there was just too much money riding on erasing that aspect of his past.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I remember one of his diaries near the very end. My jaw figuratively dropped reading it. It was an eight paragraph long Ann Coulter rant with some $20 words and a couple latin phrases sprinkled in.
My guess is that having a kid made him realize how much he needed the Wingnut Welfare with as little past internet baggage as possible. So into the trash can went the baggage.
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| parent )His reach exceeded his grasp AFAIC. Some people seem to think there is limitless room on the conservative blog bandwagon, but there are really only a handful worth reading. I think RS has demonstrated that.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )...to get paid.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Where do I send the bill I will credibly fabricate? The RNC? Washington Times? The Reagan Library?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent ).
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )"The Ship of Tarshish: Peter Berkowitz Advises Obama." Should be just above tomsyl's Delete Option diary. Just a software check here. Thanks.
http://www.theforvm.org/diary/blaisep/ship-tarshish-peter-berkowitz-advises-obama
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)it was there, it just wasn't showing up. There's a bug in one of the security modules, once used it can't be disactivated because it makes permanent changes to user rights.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )....into the void as it were.
Maybe the delete Diary function hasn't been disabled.
Having worked somewhat on my response and even added a picture of my own, I'm a little piqued that my response, along with Zelig's and Catchy's vanished as they did.
What's up?
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )I'll try doing the other fixes later tonight.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )A French term for . . .?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I cannot post a diary. Perhaps I am in the doghouse or something else is wrong. I can get to Preview, but cannot actually submit the diary.
Emails already sent to Hank and the mods.
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)HankP dropped everything he does IRL to work on the changes we asked for and this likely is a temporary side effect. Same to all who got the Drupal "site is down" screen from tuime to time yesterday.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )in addition to upgrades and security patches. Only mods and admins can now delete content.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)--
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Denmark considers outlawing male circumcision on minors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7elol/denmark_considers_outlawing_male_circumcision_on/
Who owns the foreskin? The boy, the parents, or the state?
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)...and get people banned right and left. Never have I seen a more contentious issue.
People get crazy.
Seriously, this is one to stay away from, imho.
Traveller
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| parent )I'm bored and happy to stir up trouble.
For all those uncircumcised out there I have yet to meet a woman who prefers you. I've met many who are indifferent but I've met just as many or more who claim they prefer circumcised.
Most common reason given? It's harder to keep clean w. the extra foreskin and the women are less likely to perform oral sex. I've also heard that uncircumcised men are less likely to last b/c their protected head is so sensitive.
So snip that skin off or risk compromising your child's future sex life.
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| parent )And of those, how many did you ask if they preferred me to you? Afraid what the answer would be, weren't you? Did any of them comment on your pique, or how an intact foreskin might make objects in the mirror larger than they appear?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )Intact foreskins for baby boys are very fashionable in Hollywood right now, receiving their greatest support, of course, from individuals who do not have penises.
Traveller's right. Having this argument with a partisan is dangerous business.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )begs to differ, young man.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent ). . .had a knockdown drag-out feud with Dr. Laura over this, IIRC. It wasn't pretty.
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| parent )...like this.
I'd have to see the underlying statistical methodology to feel there is any validity here and, of course, the structure of the questions themselves.
Dr. Dean and myself would have problems with a cite like that...as if women...
I won't go there.
-out-
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )they never give head and apparently don't use condoms all that often either.
Here in the US things is very different.
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| parent )cancel NZ vacation ASAP.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )....and do not examine your private parts any more or I'll dust your hands with Cayenne pepper....
lol
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )Once I was slicing habaneros for a special hotter-than-hot salsa and took a break to go to the men's room. The liquid from habaneros is persistent, somewhat oily, and hard to wash off. You fill in the blanks.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent ). . .is one of the examples I use to illustrate Eiland's Theory Of Compensatory Misery:
As human society gradually solves the problems of basic survival and reduces the amount of other miseries rooted in the reality of the human condition, the fringe elements of that society feel an increasingly strong compulsion to become obsessively angry about ever more trivial causes to recapture the sense that life is a painful struggle.
On the other hand, the logic of said Theory indicates that the more we see people obsessing about stupid stuff like this instead of real problems, the better life in general probably is at the moment. Sadly, we probably won't see much in the news about opposition to male circumcision, or PETA, or other similar stuff in the next few years.
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| parent )First we bitch about food and water. Obtaining that, we wail and moan for a roof and protection from critters with more fangs & claws than we have. Then once ensconced in our luxurious caves, we caterwaul for warmth, air conditioning, love & affection, opportunities to reach our potential, fair taxation, whiter whites, fewer potholes, better video games....
That said, widespread compulsory circumcision is looney & will be viewed as such by people a few generations from now. Why God wants prepuces is anybody's guess (factory recall?), but let's start asking for volunteers at least.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Hardly--no one's going to raise an eyebrow other than an irritated hospital bean counter who notices the missing line item if some parents decided not to get their little tyke trimmed. It's always been a parental call, and there are real reasons to do it when they're young (aside from the cleanliness issues, the (disputed) medical benefits, and the anecdotal evidence that young ladies these days prefer helmets to anteaters*--there's the fact that a baby isn't going to remember a surgical procedure that is rather painful for a teenager or an adult to undergo) that make a parental decision to authorize it well into the realm of reasonable calls that parents are allowed to make by modern society.
"Compulsory" would apply to vaccinations, but that's a whole other kettle of fish, and I'm not up to parsing the ravings of the looniest Kennedy right now.
*--Shout out to Joseph Wambaugh.
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| parent )how he feels about getting snipped because some suncracked anchorite in a desert 5000 years ago thought he heard God say it was a good idea.
That's compulsory.
Now on reaching an age of consent, if you feel like chopping off a piece of your genitalia on the off chance it might help while having unprotected sex with an HIV+ person, hey, more power. Some might choose a condom, but give it a whirl.
I just want to feel certain that nobody's chopping off bits of me, or any of my children, without their fully informed participation, unless a life is on the line.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent ). . .should we keep parents from exposing the little tykes to religion until they're old enough to vote, too? I mean, I'm not anywhere near as hostile to organized religion as some of the other posters here, but it seems to me that early religious education has far more real world impact on children than a medical procedure which, oddly enough, didn't seem to do anything to interfere with the whole Sexual Revolution thing.
Parents make important choices for children--many far more profound than circumcision--and have for thousands of years. Presumably, they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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| parent )is a whole other stick of butter than forcing kids to go to Sunday school or get baptized or wear orthodontics.
From a medical ethics point of view, the question isn't how big an impact the surgery would have, but rather is the procedure necessary & does it convey any benefit. And the answer is no, it isn't and no, it really doesn't. Is there a compelling reason to circumcise infants, rather than waiting until they reach puberty/age of consent? No, there is no compelling reason for the hurry. Hence, the procedure is ethically questionable on several counts.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Kaiser Permanente study
Confusingly though, the American Academy of Pediatrics does not think it necessary, in spite of the above
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| parent )That's been known for years: I remember seeing that fact prominently mentioned (along with a description of what smegma was) in Dr. David Reuben's famous book Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex (But Were Afraid To Ask) when I was reading it for, um, educational purposes as a pre-teenager. Of course, that book contains a lot of out of date information (the section on homosexuality in particular has rather archaic attitudes), but the penile cancer connection was well-known then and is still accurate. IIRC, the treatment for penile cancer is amputation. Given that, I'm not going to second-guess parents who choose to reduce that risk to zero.
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| parent )What, 2,000 cases/year in a pop. of 150 million? Not terribly convincing.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Maybe you didn't read what Scott wrote.
The treatment is amputation.
Of the penis.
I've already scheduled my second circumcision for tomorrow morning.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )slow motion amputation 1% at a time.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Would you like to super 'cize that?
/rimshot
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )I'm getting screened. Like, tomorrow.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent ). . .have been banned and public hysteria provoked (Alar, anyone?) over far more trivial alleged risks. No one's telling you that you have to snip your sons to be a good parent--but I'm not in favor of interfering with parents who believe it is the right call.
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| parent )Parents who do not circumcise their children are fundamentally compromising their future sexual happiness.
(trav I went to my room, but it was time to come out.)
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| parent )...it is what you were doing there in the dark that I am suspicious of, (grin)
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )only the 'unborn' have such rights.
Once you're squeezed out the old birth-vessel, we have the right to cut you, make you grow up without decent health care here in the 21st century, and convict you as an adult if you screw up.
And that's just for starters.
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| parent )So you're against the criminal justice system?
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| parent )'...convict you as an adult even if you're a minor, if somehow we're all uptight about what you did, you evil spawn of Eve.'
Don't mention cookie cutters in a subthread about circumcision. Ouch.
Edit: also MSE, your Corey Hart avatar is getting kind of old.
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| parent )is routinely done on almost all male babies for non-religious reasons (subject to my being corrected, of course).
Which could be construed as bizarre, or someone's making money or whatever. Banning that kind is probably OK. Religious circumcision OTOH, as you say, is a real can of worms...
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| parent )It's about half and half these days:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
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| parent )of surgeries, absolute numbers-wise, for a non-essential operation.
Working down from your link
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| parent )or so says the the NIH
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| parent )not an issue, I think. Your link's v interesting btw, ref to an argument we were having the other day about the cause of AIDS.
The cutters would also say it decreases the incidence of cancer. But thats a hygiene issue as well, apparently.
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| parent )It's nice to turn our attention once again towards ourselves.
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)Nerd Heaven!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Just finished Part IV of 2666. Withholding any judgment, etc., etc., but I've been spending every spare moment (and no few not-so-spare moments) with the book, which says something.
I am pretty glad to be finished with Part IV, though. That was rough.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )...because I understand that it will be "rough". I used to read stuff like "Kaleidoscope Century" or "An Exchange of Hostages" partly, I think, as a form of inoculation. But I don't think it works, really.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )Yeah, I don't think it works, either, but that - or something like it - is often part of the draw. It's probably bound to be frustrated, for better or for worse.
Does anyone know, while we're sort of on the subject, whether the murders in & around Juarez are still happening? All the information I could find seems to cut off four or five years ago. I hope that's because the epidemic ended, but there was nothing that explicitly indicated that it had.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )I finally finished the Lennon bio, then detoured into some Alan Moore books (I'm about to write a pilot for the Sci Fi Channel and need to get my head back into the super hero world), and am now finally ready to dive in.
Diving now.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soon_I_Will_Be_Invincible
Disappointed by the recent ITV superhero sitcom 'No Heroics', a very pale imitation of 'The Tick'. It even features a Batmanuel impersonation.
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| parent )Ben Edlund is a very very good writer. So much so that I actually look for his episodes of 'Supernatural'. Thanks for the tip. I'm picking up the novel now.
I've had a lotta fun going thru Moore's stuff. Top Ten and Wildcats are killin' me.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )A bit of a mishmash between a bunch of different authors, edited by George R. R. Martin. Very awesome.
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| parent )before posting again, please. Do I have a second on that?
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )...for lack of a second.
Next item.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Merry Christmas, nerdlingers.
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| parent )(Obscure Mieville steampunk reference which only PM likely will get.)
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I've been meaning to give that chap a read - worth it? If so, which?
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Not only because it is best, but because the two sequels, The Scar and Iron Council, would be incomplete without the necessary background. I'd get PSS in trade paperback size because you will want to reread it from time to time after you forget some of the particulars. Mieville's apparently radical politics are nowhere visible in these books.
I read a lot (far too much) science fiction, and Perdido Street Station is one of the best examples of credible creation of unique, weird worlds that I have ever read. Head and shoulders above anything by Clarke, Heinlein, et al - as good in its own way as some of Bradbury's best stuff.
I've read pretty much everything the guy wrote, and don't recommend anything beyond the above three books.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )I take back all the bad things BG has ever said about you.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )I'll try it, but I won't like it.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )and no back sass.
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| parent )From the Wiki.
I have to say, that doesn't speak much for his ability to construct self-consistent worlds, not that I've read him. Then again, if you think Marx has strong real-world explanatory powers, fantasy is probably right up your alley.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )Gabriel García Márquez
John Steinbeck
Richard Wright
Isabel Allende
James Baldwin
Ngugi wa Thiongo
Henrik Ibsen
Bertolt Brecht
Frank Norris
Upton Sinclair
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ernest Hemgingway
Dashiell Hammett
Charles Dickens
André Malraux
Toni Morrison
Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
George Bernard Shaw
Theodore Dreiser
August Strindberg
dang that's just the short list...
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Just off the bat, George Bernard Shaw was a Fabian Socialist and Vonnegut was a Progressive, at best. Really, you think a Marxist would have written Galapagos or Harrison Bergeron? You lefties are always complaining that we're calling the lot of you Marxists; if that list is fully Marxist, then I'm pretty well jstified in calling nearly everybody to the left of me one, including yourself.
Also, my conjecture was one on the ability of a true-believing Marxist (one who thinks that Marxism as a creed is a predictive model of world events) would have difficulty building a self-consistent world. Several of your examples quite intentionally eschew self-consistency & realism. Márquez and Magical Realism, for instance.
Also, you engage in some anachronism. I find it silly to call Dickens a Marxist when the vast majority of his work was published 10 to 20 years before Das Kapital was published. But maybe that's just me.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )about who's a Scotsman and who isn't. :)
I went with either "adopting marxist premises to build a depiction of society" or "marxist/socialist in political orientation," the rubric which produced my list. Márquez was definitely a socialist & wrote as one ("magic realism" like surrealism before it was often very political), so scores in both categories, like Upton Sinclair & a few others.
Dickens & Marx were living & writing in the same London, analyzing the same problems of the working poor, and came to many of the same cynical conclusions about the systemic contradictions of capitalism. Similar fish, same sea.
All I need to dispute your original point is one example of a successful fiction built on a Marxist premise (dialectic contradictions of social class, the futility of individual justice, capital containing the seeds of its own undoing, surplus labor extraction) and voila! Marxism works great for building consistent *fictional* worlds, and it has plenty of high drama too. Not so good with comedy, though. Or, you know, reality. :)
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )His politics aren't visible at all in his scifi novels, except to the extent that you have the tension of commoners set against the rich ruling classes. That is just the background, not the heart of his stories, and that scenario is evident in 90% of all of the scifi I have read. Very common in the work of Gibson, Stross (Singularity Sky, one of his best, has a guy spouting Marx verbatim as part of the story), Reynolds, Richard Morgan, and many other modernists.
I have to say I completely disagree with you w/r/t Mieville's ability to convincingly create alternative worlds with bizarre but self-consistent rules. I hope everyone will at least read Perdido Street Station with an open mind to find out for themselves whether your criticism is accurate. It is one of the best scifi books I have read in the last ten years, and I've managed to find a lot of really good ones in that period.
--Even a dead midget is far from light. - Confucius
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| parent )....so I don't know. All I expressed was a suspicion that he would have difficulty writing a self-consistent and yet realistic universe. But the proof's in the pudding; I'll try out Perdido Station.
re: Stross. Singularity Sky was great, though I thought the ending was weak. He seemed to get to a